Thread: So...Revenge?

  1. #1

    So...Revenge?

    Greetings,

    Now that Crushing Blows is going away and that Shield Block is no longer a spammable ability, I wonder what niche Revenge fills.

    It scales with AP somewhat (Yay!) but its low Rage cost is not going to be a factor, given the scads of Strength on Wrath tank gear.

    Revenge doesn't trigger other skills or other secondary effects other than the talented stun proc, which is on DR. Thus, it's inferior to Shield Slam and Devastate in the current Prot spec build.

    I can only really see Revenge used by non-Prot Warrior tank rotations.

    Too bad, really. Revenge used to define Warrior tanking, but I can only see it being used in a marginal role in Wrath.

    Maybe a single-target attack speed debuff might buff it a bit? Make it useful in situations when Thunderclap isn't a good idea.

    Or perhaps make it synergystic w/Dev and/or SS w/talents?

    Your Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Re: So...Revenge?

    It will still be used. Because we have avoidance.
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  3. #3

    Re: So...Revenge?

    I think Glyph of Revenge is amazing /nod.
    Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hatred, religion, war, or violence.
    I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

    http://mhkeehn.tripod.com/trashcan.jpg
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    For once, Carville was a man ahead of his time.

  4. #4
    cooms
    Guest

    Re: So...Revenge?

    i agree with tiger

  5. #5

    Re: So...Revenge?

    Revenge will still be up very often and, with 3/3 Focused Rage, will still only be 2 Rage, so hugely useful in any rage-starved situation, but otherwise I agree, it won't be an integral part of warrior rotations.
    For that reason, I'm not so sure the Glyph will make it much better. Sure, you'll get a free HS, but that HS still won't give any white-damage rage, which is what you'll still need when you've got rage problems.

  6. #6

    Re: So...Revenge?

    well... i think its still going to have a place.

    a lots going to depend on what rotation we can use. if its a long run boss fight where we have no other skills to use other than dev+sslam on 4 skill rotation there will be a 60% chance (it proccing off one of the first 2 devs) of increasing tps by upgrading a dev to a sslam and saving 12 rage. 30% of the time it will just save us 12 rage (3rd dev procs) and 10% of not proccing at all.

    now in this situation it makes sense to me that our rotation would be
    1 dev
    2. procced sslam >dev
    3. proced sslam > revenge
    4. no proc happened standard sslam

    this is ofc assuming that rage is no issue and that revenge remains a higher TPS skill than devastate. its all about that third devastate if the first 2 dont proc theres no reason to use a 3rd as all its going to do is save rage IF it procs.

    and thats the optimum for sword and board. if its a 5 man and we are weaving debuffs and ae threat moves into our gcd theres less chance to stack devs early enough in the SS cooldown to make it worth it.

    if you dont have 0 ms latency and rage is an issue and you end up using a 3 skill rotation its going to be dev >sslam or dev >rev >sslam . and again thats assumeing no other GCD useage.


    so basically if its the GCD before SSlam resets its time to use revenge

  7. #7

    Re: So...Revenge?

    Quote Originally Posted by talitu
    this is ofc assuming that rage is no issue and that revenge remains a higher TPS skill than devastate. its all about that third devastate if the first 2 dont proc theres no reason to use a 3rd as all its going to do is save rage IF it procs.
    ...
    so basically if its the GCD before SSlam resets its time to use revenge
    This is the crux of the issue.

    Right now, Revenge is still superior to Devastate, but consider that Devastate with Talents can crit a great deal more.

    And then there is Incite + Heroic Strike. Currently, this is used as a Rage dump, but with the higher Str values on Wrath tank gear and the proposed "baking in" of Ardent Defender(sic?) into normal Dodge/Parry, I don't see Rage Starvation as an issue anymore.

    Also consider that Dev and Heroic Strike w/Incite scales with gear a lot better than Revenge in Wrath, though Revenge finally scales with AP in Wrath. This is a big deal.

    Your thoughts?

  8. #8
    Deleted

    Re: So...Revenge?

    Given that:

    a) even without spammable shield block revenge will be up a lot
    b) revenge only costs 2 rage (talented)
    c) revenge gives a free heroic strike (with glyph)

    I conclude that revenge will be pretty effin imba!

  9. #9

    Re: So...Revenge?

    Actually, with Imp Revenge talents give Revenge better scaling then Devastate, so it all comes down to untalented scaling really.

  10. #10

    Re: So...Revenge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guran
    Actually, with Imp Revenge talents give Revenge better scaling then Devastate, so it all comes down to untalented scaling really.
    Yes, but talented Devastate ups the ante even more. Its stacking sunders increases its damage with each application, has a chance to proc Sword and Board and has a boosted chance to crit.

    Revenge's damage (and threat gen) in Wrath only partially scales with AP iirc, whereas Dev scales directly with both weapon and AP. This becomes a crucial matter at endgame.

    Remember, Warrior tanks are at the mercy of the GCD for their rotations - Rage is generally not an issue if we have decent AoE Threat generation. So I need the absolute most Threat gen for each and every CGD cycle. I fear that Devastate fills that role far better than Revenge.

    Seeing how Revenge was such a core ability for Prot-spec Warrior tanking rotations, i'd be sad to see it go...

    Your Thoughts?

    Edited for grammar.

  11. #11

    Re: So...Revenge?

    The stun proc on improved revenge is quite helpful on trash imo (I love it).

  12. #12

    Re: So...Revenge?

    Where do you raid and have imp revenge spec'd? ???
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  13. #13

    Re: So...Revenge?

    I guess hes not doing 25s yet, I personally had imp revenge until I started going kara coz I thought its nice to have in 5 mans ^_^

    I wonder why ppl act as if revenge wouldnt ever be up without shieldblock... I dont use SB at all when tanking trash etc and to me it seems like I still always have it up before the cd refreshes.
    Glyphe of Revenge seems to be a must have if you wanna stick with revenge tho. I personally wont start calculating the tps & threat/rage of both options until its final (and till then someone else made it ^^) but I guess if spamming devastate gets you a little more tps while costing a little more rage, you could just go without revenge and save the glyphe spot...

  14. #14

    Re: So...Revenge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anoyarou
    Yes, but talented Devastate ups the ante even more. Its stacking sunders increases its damage with each application, has a chance to proc Sword and Board and has a boosted chance to crit.
    I included that actually. Revenge has a talented 20% dmg bonus and a 5% crit with Cruelty, Devastate has a 20% crit chance. Even with Impale that levels out. Personally I'm not going to count on S&B procs to get Shield Slam in faster, it's just an extra HS once in a while.
    that's all assuming you have 5 stack sunder up anyway, surely you will still Devastate once every 30 seconds when everything else is on cooldown?

    And what do you mean with only partial scaling on Revenge? Either it scales with AP or it doesn't. Devastate scales with AP through weapon damage, Revenge gets a straight AP scaler (9,3%). Devastate only scales with ~8,57% of your AP (normalized 2.4 weapon speed * 50%), but gets extra from weapon damage.
    This would lead me to believe that Revenge will still be superior in threat generation then Devastate, especially with the Glyph. I have no data about the Devastate Glyph, but if the mechanics remain the same as in live, you won't get anything out of this except for faster debuff stacking, which means mostly a grinding tool.

  15. #15

    Re: So...Revenge?

    Think low levels before you speak.... some people get the unlucky job of being landed tanking a low level dungeon because low level paladins / druids forget about the fact that they can do it better than a dps warrior with a shield and one hander("HEY, YOU, WARRIOR, COME TANK RFK!")

    and at a lower level, warriors have revenge and TC for maxing threat out... barring cleave (which no-one uses) and Heroic strike (which many low level would-be, or, MADE-BE tanks forget about when they tag taunt to "1")
    Still proudly wearing his 4xT8.1. Keep your faceroll gear. Bitches.

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