Shadow spec useless in pve for Wrath?!?

[Captnz]

I need your opinions if Shadow spec is useless in Raids for once Wrath comes out... Don't they reduce the mana your party gets back from Vampuric Touch?

Please help!!

[Priear]

they still got a spot... Though the raid dont NEEEDDDD a shadow... Just like every other spec its not somthing you NEED... But i belive/pray that the scaling is gonna pan out like they said... + WAY to early to put the nails in anything...

[Captnz]

Ok, thank you for your info. I don't have Beta so I wouldn't know to much know.
Shadow Priests ftw!

[cornflakE]

The manareg change was the best thing couldve ever happen to the Shadowpriest, no more DPS Limitation. Yay.

[Doomwalker]

Yepp, but dont forget, frostmages and hunters are mana batteries to in WotlK. We BETTER do at least equal damage or else...

[Worshaka]

Yepp, but dont forget, frostmages and hunters are mana batteries to in WotlK. We BETTER do at least equal damage or else...

Mages & hunters are pure dps classes and can only spec to dps while priests have the ability to spec to heal as well as dps. It's unrealistic to think that we should be able to do the same dps as a pure dps class. I expect that spriest dps would be level with other hybrid classes (Paladins, Shamans, Druids) and reasonably close to the pure dps classes but they do deserve to be doing higher dps.

[Telitzp]

Mages & hunters are pure dps classes and can only spec to dps while priests have the ability to spec to heal as well as dps. It's unrealistic to think that we should be able to do the same dps as a pure dps class. I expect that spriest dps would be level with other hybrid classes (Paladins, Shamans, Druids) and reasonably close to the pure dps classes but they do deserve to be doing higher dps.

It's people like you that I want to slap in the face.
Everyone has 3 talent tree choices.
We are a Hybrid DPS.
They can choose what kind of DPS they can do.
We have one choice of DPS.
We just have the benefit of healing if needed to.
No one said that we should be equal, just close, because they are getting utility buffs. WHICH, Blizzard said they are scaling our DPS to. God man, do you pay attention to the board or what? Stop posting about stuff you do not know anything about.

[Flipguarder]

^^ I LOVE YOU ^^

[Telitzp]

^^ I LOVE YOU ^^

<3

[Worshaka]

No one said that we should be equal, just close...

Did you read the quote I replied to? Read it again... that's the "No one" saying we should be equal and did you read my reply at all? Let me quote again "I expect that spriest dps would be level with other hybrid classes (Paladins, Shamans, Druids) and reasonably close to the pure dps classes "

WTF are you rambling about, trying to argue with me about something we both agree? Perhaps learn to read things properly?

[mortistangit]

It's people like you that I want to slap in the face.
Everyone has 3 talent tree choices.
We are a Hybrid DPS.
They can choose what kind of DPS they can do.
We have one choice of DPS.
We just have the benefit of healing if needed to.
No one said that we should be equal, just close, because they are getting utility buffs. WHICH, Blizzard said they are scaling our DPS to. God man, do you pay attention to the board or what? Stop posting about stuff you do not know anything about.

You're an idiot. Blizzard is going to fix everything, blahblahblah they get around to it, things get balanced. He said pretty much the same things: things should not necessarily be equal, just close. You really need to learn how to read. Get over yourself and quit being a self-righteous moron.

And frost mages aren't really mana batteries. The pet grants nice mana returns but its only up for 1 min and it has a 3 min cooldown. The mana batteries are spriest, survival hunter, and ret pally. I don't know if they necessarily lowered the mana returned, but they redesigned the whole mana battery thing.

The changes are being made not to replace spriests but to allow raids greater flexibility. The philosophy is you shouldn't look at a fight and say "We need more <insert certain with certain spec>". You should instead say "We need more DPS or more healers or more mana batteries or more melee support classes, etc etc."

[Soulssong]

How many of these stupid "O NOZ SPS USELEZ NOEZ!" threads do we need to see?

Stop it...

It's beta, they're working on things, hold on to your panties, everything will be alright, I promise.

[Flipguarder]

im only going to say this once...


IF YOU DONT LIKE THE TITLE THEN DONT READ THE THREAD!

[Doomwalker]

Mages & hunters are pure dps classes and can only spec to dps while priests have the ability to spec to heal as well as dps. It's unrealistic to think that we should be able to do the same dps as a pure dps class. I expect that spriest dps would be level with other hybrid classes (Paladins, Shamans, Druids) and reasonably close to the pure dps classes but they do deserve to be doing higher dps.

Well, i think its time to stop thinking in that old way realy. The uniqueness of hybrid classes is gone now, hybrid classes dont give the raid any other utilities than other classes can do.
Spriests main utility in raids was our manaregen for the goup, and damage buff on the bosses/mobs. Now other classes have the same utility, and they dont stack anymore, so why should we do less damage??
For example, if a FROST specced mage have the same utility as we have (manaregen, buffs) why should he do more damage? He can specc fire or arcane if he want to be a pure DPSer, but if he speccs utility = less DPS, and we should be aprox equal to their DPS.

Blizzard did write a while ago that feral kittys should do aprox the same damage as Rouges, and Druids are still hybrids right? They also did write that frost mages should do less damage just for the utility bonus from manaregen, so i cant se why we should do less damage than a frostmage.
And i se no reson why we should do less damage as shadow just becouse we can spec healing. I have never specced healing IN a raid, and i cant afford to get dubble equippment from DKP(both healing and shadow).
Spriests unique utility is gone, so if we dont bring something new to raids, we will not be raiding if we gimp the raids.
Ofc we shouldnt do as mutch DPS as firemages/arcanemages/warlocks and Rogues, but we should make the same DPS as the other hybrid and pure DPS utility specced classes imo.

[Lumindria]

I've been playing a premade spriest on beta. All I can say is they are very good dps and will have no problem competing with mages or locks. http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53023#see-also-ability rocks! Nothing like an aoe mind flay, we finally got our aoe ;D

[Worshaka]

Well, i think its time to stop thinking in that old way realy. The uniqueness of hybrid classes is gone now, hybrid classes dont give the raid any other utilities than other classes can do.
Spriests main utility in raids was our manaregen for the goup, and damage buff on the bosses/mobs. Now other classes have the same utility, and they dont stack anymore, so why should we do less damage??
For example, if a FROST specced mage have the same utility as we have (manaregen, buffs) why should he do more damage? He can specc fire or arcane if he want to be a pure DPSer, but if he speccs utility = less DPS, and we should be aprox equal to their DPS.

Blizzard did write a while ago that feral kittys should do aprox the same damage as Rouges, and Druids are still hybrids right? They also did write that frost mages should do less damage just for the utility bonus from manaregen, so i cant se why we should do less damage than a frostmage.
And i se no reson why we should do less damage as shadow just becouse we can spec healing. I have never specced healing IN a raid, and i cant afford to get dubble equippment from DKP(both healing and shadow).
Spriests unique utility is gone, so if we dont bring something new to raids, we will not be raiding if we gimp the raids.
Ofc we shouldnt do as mutch DPS as firemages/arcanemages/warlocks and Rogues, but we should make the same DPS as the other hybrid and pure DPS utility specced classes imo.

I can appreciate this point of view, however I would state that if all you wanted to do was to top dps charts then why didn't you roll a pure dps class? I would also state that if you were to make every class in the game able to do equal dps (when dps spec'd) why would anyone roll a pure dps class? I could roll a hybrid class, spec to dps and perform just as well as a pure dps class and when my raid needed a healer or tank i could spec that role as needed. It would pretty much make a pure dps class redundant.

I still believe pure dps classes should get a slight dps advantage because that's all they do. The Hybrid classes should be balanced for dps in comparison to each other and within the ball park of the pure dps class output. That helps justify a raid position for all classes imo.

[Doomwalker]

Well the main reason for taking hybrid classes to raids was the utility they did provide. Spriests did provide manaregen/damage debuff on target, shadowdebuff for warlocks and small healing (VE), Paladins manaregen or hp regen or damage debuff and auras, Druids +crit for meele (cat) or +crit for casters (oomkin).

The thing is, alot of classes get the same stuff now + Spriests loose some (shadow weaving only self buff)
I turning it around the other way here, you saying "why bring a pure DPS class to raids when a hybrid can do the same DPS" and i say "why bring a hybrid DPS to the raid, if he do less DPS and not providing any more utility"


If a Pure DPS want to bring utility to raids, he should do less DPS ofc and its the players choise, i do less DPS but bring more utility. A Spriest allways have our utility, its a part of our DPS, so we cant spec pure DPS with no utility.

If a frostmage starts crying over a Spriests DPS, he can allways go to the trainer and go fire/Arcane right? Frost will be a "offspec" for mages as it looks now.

Imo, i would rather keep Spriests unique utility in raids, but Blizzard will not allow us to be unique anymore. If buffs dont stack, and several classes do the same thing for the raid as we do but do more DPS, why bring a Spriest at all?

[joyu]

Yepp, but dont forget, frostmages and hunters are mana batteries to in WotlK. We BETTER do at least equal damage or else...

you forget mage pet wont be up 100% of the combat, and priest dps has increased a lot.
now sp only give health and mana and 3%hit to raid, but is enough to have a spot for bosses who do dmg to the raid

[Doomwalker]

With frost snap and the "short" cooldown, they will provide nearly the same mana to the raid, but faster. With improved VE (if we are going to heal the raid) we cant be DPSing 100% of the time = less manaregen for the raid. Improved VE will skyrocket our treath (we heal the raid) and with some unlucky crits (from all the new spirit gear with crit stats) we WILL take aggro.

Ye, Spriests DPS has increased alot, but so have the other classes to.

[aquanda]

Any of the Mage specs offer no 'utility' to the raid at all right now. Most raids would rather drop a trivial buff AI compared to Fort which is one of the best buffs available.

If a Mage of any spec can't out dps a Shadow priest while going all out on his respective skills / talents / cooldowns then I would not see much of a reason to bring a Mage. With Shamans now having Hex and Tanks being able to generate so much more threat than usual crowd control (one of the Mages key benefits being Polymorph in TBC) is becoming less of an issue as well, yet another reason I'd rather take the SPriest.

Oh I take it back, you should always keep 1 Mage in reserve to make sure everyone has enough food and water to last the night.

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot about the Water Ele raid buff. They have that going for them, which is nice.