Build for raiding in WotLK?

[Cunnelly]

Been messing around a bit and can't decide, personally I don't like the last talent in BM and think it's a waste of points.. But I haven't really looked around much, opinions?

[AsIlaydying]

I dunno, the exotic pets all have some really nice abilities. If you have already looked at all the exotic pets and decided useless then cool but if you haven't seen em yet, go check em out. Do a search for big red kitty on youtube, he has done all of them I believe.

[Cunnelly]

I was just looking up Core Hounds a second ago and hell, I have my mind set on The Kurken now! Haha :P



As for a build, still a bit baffled

[Cunnelly]

I'm thinking this, but not messed around enough yet http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=cgbMzxxRwu0ekt0eV0MV

[Deathiccus]

depending on how the new Viper works, effiency may not be needed

thats just my opinion.

i'd probably use 3/3 range talent and 2/5 improved trackiing.
as well, i havent gotten test how all this works but thats my 2 copper

[Qieth]

Im so staying survival: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=cZ0eVbMZxc0i0cIhxuAhot

PvE build which should work quite well for PvP aswell. Mmm explosive shot. You can have your big dinos, ill stick to my boomshot! :P

[Ace]

Aym, to negelect Sniper Training Will Really Hurt your build..its free damage for standing where you normally do...think about it

[Idt]

my thoughts exactly

[Qieth]

Aym, to negelect Sniper Training Will Really Hurt your build..its free damage for standing where you normally do...think about it

No, i dont think so.

First of all, i dont have the extra talent points. I could take it from Carefull Aym, but then id lose a scaling ability with int.

Second, it only affects some of my skills - steady shot and explosive shot. Its safe to assume that every survival hunter will use serpent sting to proc LaL, and from that i get +3% to *all* my damage, instead of +6% to steady and explosive.

Third, i dont know how fights are going to be in WOTLK, but there are quite a few fights in current WoW where you wont be able to stay at max range all the time. I suppose i could take it "for the fights where i can", but then id have to take points from something else, and thats just too hard to do. I could take some from Master Tactician, but that kinda defeats the purpose of a crit build. (long explanation of why MT rocks, and always has :P). In any case, i would rather go for "sure thing" talents than "If you can get far enough away".

Quickly thinking about current fights where Sniper Training wouldnt help:

Anything in Sunwell (perhaps except Kalecgos, Kil'Jaeden (havent tried that) and Brutallus if you're not a soaker.

Many of the fights in BT (Naj'Entus in most cases, Akama, Teron, Gurtogg, possibly Mother, possibly Council)

Hyjal and Tempest Keep seems rather safe

Many fights in SSC (Hydross, Lur- hm maybe, Leo, Morogrim, and Vashj whenever you are not DPSing her, for the most part)

Zul'Aman is so-so. Karazhan has Attumen, Maiden, probably Opera.

See, what im trying to do is consider when the talent would actually benefit me, and what value that has above other talents i could chose. Id be a fool if i thought i could stay at max range in every fight in WOTLK.

Going for the simple choice, i would take points from Carefull Aym and put them into Sniper Training. I have no idea how much int i will have at 80, but right now i have 250 unbuffed, which means 250 more AP for me. With hawk, i have, completely coincidental, 2500 AP, so right now if i had carefull aim, it would increase my AP by 10%. The number will be a bit different in WOTLK, since i will have more AP modifiers. If i had survivalist and HvsW right now, the AP bonus (after changing the benefit from Survivalist) would give me an 8% AP increase. Just an example.

So, if carefull aym is in question, im looking at a current 10% AP increase (more if i remove hawk, really) or a 6% damage increase on steady and explosive shot when i might be able to be far away from my target. Instead, 10% more AP helps my stings and auto shots aswell, and it even increases damage for my pet.

Fourth(ly?), we're running with raidwide buffs, and i might not want to stand too far away from other people. If the shaman is on the other side of the boss from where im standing, and im at max range, ill be royaly fucked, and miss out of that agility or WF totem.

This is just some of the thoughts ive made on it. I havent done the actual math, but i feel very confident with this.

[Qieth]

Oh silly me. Since nobody wrote here, i might aswell put my Carefyll Aym calculations into affect. Ofcourse, we are looking at current stats, and only the difference between 3 points in sniper training and 3 points in Carefull Aym.

Steady shot with 2500 AP, and assuming a "base damage" of 374 (from Bristleblitz Striker):

2500 * 0.2 + 150 + 374 = 1024 damage

+6% from Sniper training:

(2500 * 0.2 + 150 + 374) * 1.06 = 1085,44 damage

Additional AP from Carefull Aym:

(2500 + 250) * 0.2 + 150 + 374 = 1074 damage.

Woopdidoo. At level 70, we're talking 11 points of damage in difference. I wonder, actually, if base damage includes attack power, but lets assume it doesnt. This time i just took the highest "base damage" of my bow.

Lets say I took the lowest damage. That would put the numbers at:

(2500 * 0.2 + 150 + 201) * 1.06 = 902,06 damage
(2500 + 250) * 0.2 + 150 + 201 = 901 damage.

Leaving the damage difference on steady shot at 1,06 damage, or 2,4698 on a crit. The damage range, in any case, varies between 1,06 and 26,6552 damage. You'd still do more damage with sniper training IF you are more than 30 yards away.

Lets have some fun - we'll do it with explosive shot aswell - it will probably shot a bigger difference:

(2500 * 0.2 + 345) * 3 = 2535 damage (assuming minimum bonus damage)

Sniper training:

(2500 * 0.2 + 345) * 1,06 * 3 = 2687,1 damage

Carefull Aym:

(2500 + 250 * 0.2 + 345) * 3 = 2685

Nope, no signifigant difference. Ill do the math for you, but if you assume the highest bonus damage (415) the numbers will be 2909,7 and 2895, giving Sniper training a staggering lead of 14 damage (noncrit), and probably a little bit more from the dots aswell.

Now, thats all fine and dandy, but the extra damage from sniper training is completely removed if im 29 yards away from my target. With Carefull Aym, i can stand at 6 yards range and still do that amount of damage, AND it increases my auto shot and serpent sting damage aswell, not to mention that the extra attack power adds a bit to my pet aswell. Did i mention that Sniper Training is useless at close range?

Ofcourse, who knows if im right. Im doing these calculations based on level 70 gear. Maybe we have less int in WOTLK (as in, it scales worse) or maybe there is some other factor that plays in. But taking all this into account, the very meager damage difference, the distance needed, and the fact that Carefull Aym, as it is now, is probably a bigger increase to my damage than Sniper Training is, my own conclution is that Carefull Aym > Sniper Training.

Other talents to take:

GFTT? Nah, i like the added focus.
Rapid Killing? No way
TNT and LaL? Ahaha
HvsW? I can only take out two points in it, or my spec would be locked, and it still adds a very nice amount of AP aswell. Less than CA unbuffed, but with fortitude and kings it shouldn't be a problem at all
Expose weakness? Never, it wont be up 100% of the time with 3 talents, and it would be up less with two. Lots of discussions have been made on that topic.
Master Tactician? The talent is godlike, even if people dont realise it. I would drop from a 10% crit proc (which with the little buff is probably up a little more often, giving it a 5-6% flat crit increase) to a 4% increase (which probably, and i havent done the calculations on this) would be an effective 1-2% crit increase. The rest of my arguments on MT is up in the post above.
Noxious Stings? Nope, that gives me more damage, and ill use my sting anyways to proc LaL.
Hunting Party? Yes, perhaps. However:

According to Arcazua from Lightbringer's chart, if we get enough crit, we can go down a few talents in hunting party and still have it up "most of the time".



Assuming 90% is a good statistical aym, if i get somewhere between 50-55% crit, i could free up three points in hunting party, still have it up often, and take sniper training. By then, we can talk about taking sniper training, but only as a DPS boost for the really high end hunter, cause i doub we will actually achieve this before T9+. Ofcourse, as crit goes up, one, and then two points in hunting party will be increased, but we're talking basic talent specs here, right?

Did i miss anything?

[Dawn Falcon]

Aym, to negelect Sniper Training Will Really Hurt your build..its free damage for standing where you normally do...think about it

You stand outside the radius of most of the buffs?

Sniper Training is near-useless afaik because of that issue.

[Qieth]

You stand outside the radius of most of the buffs?

Sniper Training is near-useless afaik because of that issue.

Huh? What about the two walls i constructed on the issue? :P

[KryT1caL]

@ Dawn Falcon
You aren't outside raid buffs.

@Aym
Very good calculations my friend. Love seeing people who know the calculations of their class. With what you said, I might have to change my Surv raiding spec a little.

[Qieth]

@ Dawn Falcon
You aren't outside raid buffs.

@Aym
Very good calculations my friend. Love seeing people who know the calculations of their class. With what you said, I might have to change my Surv raiding spec a little.

If i had the extra points, i would possibly put it into imp. stings. I need to find the link to the guy that posted recount from Nax, and see how big a part of our damage comes from Serpent Sting. If its significant, ill take two points from GFTT and put them into imp. stings, and then take one point from Hunting Party when i get enough crit and put it into Imp. Stings aswell. But if the sting is only 5% of our damage, and we only use it to proc LnL, then that would be useless really.

Still, Sniper Training is far, far down the list for me.

[KryT1caL]

Ok, question Aym. What is your rotation as a Surv hunter? You use Steady shot consistantly right? Wouldn't a conistant 6% increase on your steady shot and your explosive shot be beneficial? and wouldn't 20-30% extra RAP from your Hunter's mark be more beneficial then a 10% proc to inc crit chance? Just questioning.

[Qieth]

Well first of all, im merely speculating, cause honestly me and math were never good friends. There is likely to be a lot of factors i dont take into account - for example, steady shot is diminished by armor, and arcane/explosive are not. Stuff like that..

Rotation as a surv hunter now, or in WOTLK? Im guessing WOTLK The great blue gods hasnt granted me with a beta key, which obviously annoys me as hell - id be content with a 40 yard arena and Dr. Boom, and i couldnt care less about anything else at the moment. So again, emphasis on "speculations".

I figure that my rotation will be something like: (assuming a little bit of haste to bring steady down to 1,5 - and global cooldown is 1,5 anyways)
Steady (1,5) > Explosive (3) > Steady (4,5) > Serpent (6) > Steady (7,5) > Explosive (9) > Steady (10,5) > Multishot (12) > Steady (13,5) > Explosive (15) > Steady > Errr - it gets a little tight in the end. I cant decide if i want to refresh serpent sting before it runs out (procs more LaL, but reduces damage per mana). If anything, i can add another steady shot, an explosive shot, then steady, and then continue from serpent again.

In other words i think i will prioritize like this:

Steady between every special
Explosive shot
Keeping Serpent sting up
Multishot

If all are on cooldown, or if multishot will be useless (i suspect it will be), ill simply pop another steady shot while im waiting for my cooldown to be done.

If LaL procs, i plan on doing either Steady/explosive x4 (cause 3rd explosive wont trigger cooldown anyways) or, since there will be about 1 sec left of the ES-dot when my Global Cooldown is up, i might just wait a split second and fire my explosives in succession, so the shots doesnt overwrite each other.

Ugh, its so difficult to have to think all of this through. I cant know more until i get to test it.

As i said above, the difference - right now at level 70 - is marginal. 11 points of nocrit damage isnt amazing, but the added attack power in general will, as i stated before, increase my auto shots (and multishots if i use it), aswell as my pets AP by a fair amount. The auto shot + pet damage will be more than enough to make up for the meager difference. I dont know if its the same at 80, but i havent gotten the stats to calculate with.

Master Tactician have always been an underrated, but completely awesome talent, and its been buffed with a few more seconds, so i suspect that it will be up quite a lot. Since we are a crit spec, and we benefit so much from crits, i cant see why i wouldnt have as much crit as possible. Crit gives:

More damage - obviously
TOTH proc
Hunting Party proc
Expose weakness refreshing
Pet focus if you have GFTT

Not to mention the massive oppotunity for damage from ES, in my current BT/Sunwell gear i could have (unbuffed) crit of 65% with ES if my MT procs. With the added duration, it will be up "most" of the time, giving at least 5% more crit overall. Just a noncrit explosive shot (full duration) does more damage than a crit arcane shot, so more crits the merrier. Whats best? 5% more crit overall, or 90 more attack power (from imp. hunters mark)? Im leaning towards the crit, mate.

Besides, i like crits.

[KryT1caL]

Aym... i have to say, I enjoy reading your posts. I actually take into account what you have to say because of the way you explain things.

[Red_Fox]

agree'd =] if i could shake your hand i would. also, tie in the "Glyph of Steady shot" ~.^ now thats when fun happens.

[Dawn Falcon]

@ Dawn Falcon
You aren't outside raid buffs

I disagree, quite a few still have a 30 yard range and others need to be talented to extend beyond 30 yards. More, in some situations say Shaman totems might be some yards on the far side of a boss...then there's the issues of ranging healers, dispellers and other effects.. it's going to be a common enough situation that other talents provide a higher return.

[Omnibane]

aym here is my 2copper on your spec idea.. i would drop nox (personaly i look at it and just think .. bad talent) .. in idea +3% damage for 3 talents sounds like a solid envestment and maybe if you have a high enough dps it is. say around 1300 sustain'd dps till then scratch nox and if your gonna have stings up 24/7 for lnl grab imp sting 3 for the +30% sting damage .. stings maybe bad dps but the math dont lie.

basicly here it is .. ya take your rap 2500 .. add the 250 from int .. 2750
take the 79 serp sting 20% rap + 1210
2750 x .2 +1210 = 1760 damage sting at 352 a tic for 117.33 dps while its on
add the imp sting
2750 x .2 +1210 x .3 = 2288 damage at 457.6 a tic for 152.52 dps
a extra 35.2 dps
if you had 1300 dps and ya add'd 3% ya only gain 39 dps
1300 x .03 = 1339 .. so till ya doing 1300 constant dps i dont think its a good choice.

just my 2cp though