Build for raiding in WotLK?

[Qieth]

My thoughts on that.

First of all, we're going to be using stings anyways, cause we want to proc LaL. We also wont have other stuff to use alongside steady shot while we wait for explosive shot to be off cooldown, unless we want to pop another steady shot.

What i like to do when deciding on talents is to compare the talents to each other. When finding the benefit from Noxious stings, you could prop it up against another talent that you can consider alongside it. For example, Noxious stings vs Sniper Training or Noxious Stings vs Imp. Hunters Mark, all the while bearing in mind that we have to use stings because the benefit from using stings might provide us with a LaL proc.

Looking at it really simple:

Sniper Training adds 6% damage to explosive shot and steady shot (situational)
Noxious stings adds 3% damage to explosive shot, steady shot, auto shot, serpent sting and (if we use it) multishot. Not only does it benefit more attacks, abeit for less, but it works all the time, no matter where i stand - 36 yards or 6 yards.

Lets say we use my rotation above - ill repost it. Again, id like to say that this was just a quick rotation i came up with, and that i dont know if it will be like this:

Steady (1,5) > Explosive (3) > Steady (4,5) > Serpent (6) > Steady (7,5) > Explosive (9) > Steady (10,5) > Multishot (12) > Steady (13,5) > Explosive (15)

Finding some basic figures for the shots:

Steady shot: 1000 damage
Explosive shot: 2535 damage
Serpent sting: 1160 damage
Multishot: 1000 damage (i think)
Auto shot: 900 damage

Above rotation would give:

1000 > 2535 > 1000 > 1160 > 1000 x 1,03 > 2523 x 1,03 > 1000 x 1,03 > 1000 x 1,03 > 1000 x 1,03 > 2535 x 1,03
1000 > 2535 > 1000 > 1160 > 1030 > 2611,05 > 1030 > 1030 > 1030 > 2611,05
15037,1 damage

Plus about 5 auto shots, where 4 will have the increase, adding up to 4608 damage. Total damage: 19645,1.

Now, what if we use the same preset, but only have a 6% increase on steady shot and explosive shot? We will still use serpent sting, mind you.

1000 x 1,06 > 2535 x 1,06 > 1000 x 1,06 > 1160 > 1000 x 1,06 > 2535 x 1,06 > 1000 x 1,06 > 1000 > 1000 x 1,06 > 2535 x 1,06
1060 > 2687,1 > 1060 > 1160 > 1060 > 2687,1 > 1060 > 1000 > 1060 > 2687,1
5 auto shots for 900 damage

Total damage: 20021,3

Difference: 376,2 damage or 25 DPS.

This number will wary a bit depending on crits, misses and such. Its still not overwhelming, though. But do keep in mind, that if you are NOT able to be further than 30 yards away, your damage will drop to 15037, almost 5000 damage less than you could have done, or a DPS loss of about 330.

So, you can do MARGINALLY more damage with sniper training over Noxious Stings, but you risk losing a SUBSTANCIAL amount of damage if you cant gain distance. Bear in mind i might have made miscalculations or bad assumptions, but thats how i look at it.

Pyh. Alright, lets compare imp. hunters mark vs. Noxious Stings!

Assumed damage: Nox damage - Mark Damage

Steady shot: 1030 - 1038
Explosive shot: 2611,05 - 2589 (noxious stings wins)
Serpent sting: 1194,8 - 1178 (noxious stings wins)
Multishot: 1030 - whatever more damage 90 AP adds
Auto shot: 927 - same as above

I stopped doing the calculations there. It appears from the preliminary noob-calculations, that 3% damage scales more than the 90 more AP you would get from improved hunters mark, probably because AP is redudes by x 0,2 (meaning only 18 extra damage), but 3% flat increases both the damage from AP and the base damage on the shot (explosive shots 345-415 damage).

Again, i feel that the points are better spent in Noxious Stings, since it adds a bit more damage than Imp. Hunters Mark.

Oh, and outright, carefull aym > imp. hunters mark.

I really hope i didnt mess up any calculations too bad, and that it all makes sense :P

[Qieth]

Oh, by the way, another argument against Imp. Hunters mark in regards to Noxious Stings, is that Imp. Hunters Mark doesnt scale at all. As your gear improves, the 90 extra AP will be less significant, where +3% damage will scale nicely and become better and better.

[Omnibane]

I think you didn't even read what i said just look'd at the numbers .. i never said anything about imp mark... i was talking about the+ 30% sting damage from improved sting which = more dps till you have over 1300 sustained dps

[Stompalomp]

Personally think that BM will still be the way to go for me anyway. In tests ive seen, BM and SV specs seem to be doin ~the same DPS, with MM lagging behind a little. was thinking of something like :

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

Only points im not sure about are putting 2 into Invigoration...depending on AotV changes, and whether or not im better off taking 1 point out of Rapid Killing and putting it into back into Seperation Anxiety. Also, not sure about Improved Tracking vs Seperation Anxiety, ie which will give me a bigger dps boost. So could end up going for something like :

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

instead, depending on how things work out. Sure some will think that going for Bestial Discipline and Go for the Throat is overkill, but giving pets surplus Focus is alwys good, especially combined with Cobra Strikes, I think it will be well worth the points tbh. Rapid Fire is the issue for me. Love having the ability to pop BW/Rapid Fire combos for insane nuke DPS, especially when combined with a trinket. But anyhoo, enough waffling, feel free to criticise or advise as u feel like ;p

[Qieth]

I think you didn't even read what i said just look'd at the numbers .. i never said anything about imp mark... i was talking about the+ 30% sting damage from improved sting which = more dps till you have over 1300 sustained dps

Ouch, im sorry about that. I was a bit fast there. Well, at least i posted thoughts on Imp. hunters mark :P

I dont think 1300 DPS will be a problem at all - at least not for me, in my current gear, and not at level 80 for anyone. I just simply like talents that increase damage overall. Remember, glyphs and other talents will increase damage aswell. 3% more damage on any attack is better than "just" 3% increase when your skill has a higher crit chance than other spells (explosive shot, for example).

Id rather take points from GFTT and put them into imp. stings, and when my crit is high enough im going to nick a point from hunting party to max out stings.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

[Omnibane]

at 80 the dps probly wont be a problem but with the new nerf's to lnl and the add'd duration of hunting party ya really wont need more then 2 points in hunting party ever now that the duration is almost 2x but with lnl only being 1 free shot for a 30% chance off a sting that cost 2x the shot. its silly to build a spec around it now .. although i'll still be survival with or without lnl. sence the viper change though ya might wanna think about this sence I'm not gonna wanna have viper on any more then i need to
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

even with a 3second bow and enough haste to drop it into 1.5ish
thats only gonna be 6% of your mana every 3 seconds if your not doing anything but autoshot and your dps is cut in 1/2 for the whole duration
with hunting party it wont hurt so much but when ya get into a 25man ya never know where hunting party is gonna buff you could go 2 mins without getting your own buff lol

even if your mana pool is 3x your base mana any time you use viper auto shots would regen 3% mana for free
serpent sting would regen 0% mana
multi shot would regen .33% mana
arcane would regen .66% mana
explosive shot you would lose .33% mana
kill shot you would gain .66% mana
steady the cheepest and most used of all you would gain 1.66% mana per shot

but the whole time your shots do 1/2 damage so i'm gonna try to get as mana effeicent as posible may hurt me on short trash mobs but on the fights that count i think i'll do alright

[Qieth]

Just to note: we've been counting with a 15 second refreshment from the start. Also, the LaL nerf has been nerfed again (they plan to make it two free arcane/explosive shots, down from 3, up from 1.

[Venator]

I think MM will take the back the crown in wotlk for raiding

[Oryan]

For raiding at level 70 I plan on going http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=ctbMztgRmuMxoZ0eVZx

I took Spirit Bond over Animal Handler because I though I heard something about our pets taking our hit% and I figured I could help out my healers because we are having a little issue with healing through burns. If the hunter's hit % is not being applied to the pet I will just take Animal Handler. I would love to hear other hunters opinions on the spec I plan on going.

[Prefix]

Overall it looks good, however, I consider Go For the Throat a must. And I would also take Cobra Strikes.

My spec is slightly different, as I am going exotic, but not too far off your spec.

[Agito]

Well read all the posts and like what I see but I have a Question.

This is the lvl 80 Hunters Mark:
Places the Hunter's Mark on the target, increasing the ranged attack power of all attackers against that target by 300 and by an additional 30 each time they are struck by a ranged attack, up to a maximum of 1200. In addition, the target of this ability can always be seen by the hunter whether it stealths or turns invisible. The target also appears on the mini-map. Lasts for 2 min.

now will we get 30% of 1200 or 30% of 300 with imp Hunters Mark?

Improved Hunter's Mark Rank 3
Increases the bonus attack power granted by your Hunter's Mark ability by 30%, and reduces the mana cost of your Hunter's Mark ability by 100%.

this could be a deciding factor for most of us, considering its 100 ap vs 400 ap, maybe not a great question but still curious.

[talitu]

well beast mastery to a raiding BM hunter basically means you get a devilsaur which will get +9% pet dps from
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=55499

and the 4 extra TP will prolly get it 9% less magic damage and a self rez.

if your that deep in the tree its prolly worth taking.

[Spl4sh3r]

Quickly thinking about current fights where Sniper Training wouldnt help:

Anything in Sunwell (perhaps except Kalecgos, Kil'Jaeden (havent tried that) and Brutallus if you're not a soaker.

Many of the fights in BT (Naj'Entus in most cases, Akama, Teron, Gurtogg, possibly Mother, possibly Council)

Hyjal and Tempest Keep seems rather safe

Many fights in SSC (Hydross, Lur- hm maybe, Leo, Morogrim, and Vashj whenever you are not DPSing her, for the most part)

Zul'Aman is so-so. Karazhan has Attumen, Maiden, probably Opera.

What are you talking about? :P Why can't you be at maxrange on Naj'entus? And Akama I don't see any trouble with being maxrange.
Leo you won't be at maxrange on those occassions when he whirlwinds closer to you (ooh and that happen so often, I usually don't even DPS then) and on Vashj (I was on Elementals) it's almost to easy to stay at maxrange. Lurker you can be on maxrange, same with Hydross. Zul'Aman you can also be at maxrange, but not 100%. On Maiden you can be at maxrange if you stand behind a dispeller, on Opera too and bla bla bla ^^

[Qieth]

Well read all the posts and like what I see but I have a Question.

This is the lvl 80 Hunters Mark:
Places the Hunter's Mark on the target, increasing the ranged attack power of all attackers against that target by 300 and by an additional 30 each time they are struck by a ranged attack, up to a maximum of 1200. In addition, the target of this ability can always be seen by the hunter whether it stealths or turns invisible. The target also appears on the mini-map. Lasts for 2 min.

now will we get 30% of 1200 or 30% of 300 with imp Hunters Mark?

Improved Hunter's Mark Rank 3
Increases the bonus attack power granted by your Hunter's Mark ability by 30%, and reduces the mana cost of your Hunter's Mark ability by 100%.

this could be a deciding factor for most of us, considering its 100 ap vs 400 ap, maybe not a great question but still curious.

If it takes into account the full 1200 AP, then imp. hunters mark will give 360 extra AP. It still doesnt scale, and its not an overwhelming change. Im betting we will all have more than 360 int. Ofcourse, im looking at it from a survival standpoint - it might probably be usefull for MM hunters.

What are you talking about? :P Why can't you be at maxrange on Naj'entus? And Akama I don't see any trouble with being maxrange.
Leo you won't be at maxrange on those occassions when he whirlwinds closer to you (ooh and that happen so often, I usually don't even DPS then) and on Vashj (I was on Elementals) it's almost to easy to stay at maxrange. Lurker you can be on maxrange, same with Hydross. Zul'Aman you can also be at maxrange, but not 100%. On Maiden you can be at maxrange if you stand behind a dispeller, on Opera too and bla bla bla ^^

Lots of "Ifs" and lots of running there mate. Just consider what i wrote earlier: Get a marginal buff against other talents if you can get range, but lose a SUBSTANCIAL amount of damage if you cant.

[frogi]

This is the spec I'm going for: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=ctbMztgRVuMesz0eVbZx
Might change exotic pet for Scatter Shot, not sure. I think the 4 extra skill points are nicer than some of the exotic pets.

Then having a Worm for solo (the debuff) or Bear for rep grinds and low level mobs (swipe pulls).
Either a Wasp (debuff) for grouping or a Wolf (call of the wild and furious howl).

Or just might be like everyone else and get a big, nasty T-Rex.

But we see how the Xpack ends up.

[Qieth]

I finally got on the PTR, and did some fast testing. Build was: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

I was able to get up to a peak of 2400 DPS without using a pet. Some factors though:

- Latency issues on PTR
- Unfamiliar shot rotation
- Not level 80, obviously
- Chance debuffs on the target dummy from other players
- No armor on target dummy
- T6+ gear
- No buffs other than hawk (alright, my ring and trinkets procced, but..)
- Just realised i had the insignia trinket on :P

I can barely hit 2000 DPS on Brutallus with a good raid spec, and thats counting only haste potions, haste abilities, blood lust, Jow, drums of restoration, my pet and tons of debuffs. On the other hand, Brut has a fair bit of armor, so that might be important to note aswell. Just wanted to give you the preliminaries.

Can anybody, around the same gear, tell me what their DPS increase is with their respected talents?

Update: I was just in again, to try out with a wolf and some more DPS, but i regret to inform you that its near impossible to sustain a good shot rotation with 1200 ms. Still, did 2400 DPS again, with pet, but with a massive lag aswell :P

[Prefix]

This seems to be the spec I am going for atm.

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=ctbMzggRmuMxst0eVb0h

I MAY swap Separation Anxiety for something else, if it shows out to be über crap.

Depending on how the entire dual speccing turns out, I'll have a cookie cutter Surv spec on the side.

[EDIT] Wrong link somehow

[Pxi]

this will prob going to be mine, since the new patch changes, Sniper Training seems like a decent place to put talents. Still not sure between MM or Surv (prob surv... but nerfs just keep on coming)
Surv : http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

MM : http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...13253135330351

opinions please

[Quzor]

This is what I'm planning on using for raiding: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

As for the other two specs, these are the ideas I've had:

BM: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

MM: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...13253135331351