[Discussion] JotW - Undocumented Fix or Bug?

[Montoya]

Extracted from: http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/module...&p=26572#26572

Over on the Cromfel forums it's been discovered that either by accident or as a currently undocumented fix, JotW is working as a personal buff at approximately 25% return.

Quoting Hempo

More news.

Hempo gains 1307 Mana from Hempo's Judgements of the Wise.

This would have been possible off of a critical of 5228. Not entirely out of the realm of possibility, but lets look for something a bit more realistic.

Quoting Lokos

Lokos's Judgement of Command hits Vonce for 3868 Holy.(Critical)
Lokos gains 967 Mana from Lokos's Judgement of the Wise
Lokos gains 25 mana from Lokos's Replenishment

Tested today :>

Wewts! Let's hope it's not a bug

967 is exactly 25% of 3868.
25 Mana about 0.5% of a 5000 mana pool.

It's also being discussed over at Elitest Jerks.

See: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t28560-p...26/#post886106

Let's get some more numbers rolling in and discuss this.

[Thumos]

Everyone in the beta forums seems to think it's 20% of total mana not 25% of Judgment damage.

[yiptastic]

25% mana return from damage is reasonable. It will be 5% more than the old one in a raid situation + replenishment.

60% mana return is too much for solo, and even if we need that kind of mana return, it shouldn't be coming all from one mana returning method. judgement of wisdom debuff for an example should be strong as well.

[Thumos]

Well apparently it is in fact 20% of total mana... Holy Paladins are already abusing it and getting 3000 mana back on every Judgment. I think we can assume this talent will be moved deep into Ret when they do the big Paladin pass soon.

[Montoya]

25% mana return from damage is reasonable. It will be 5% more than the old one in a raid situation + replenishment.

60% mana return is too much for solo, and even if we need that kind of mana return, it shouldn't be coming all from one mana returning method. judgement of wisdom debuff for an example should be strong as well.

20 or 25% of total mana is a huge difference from 60% damage done.

[Omatre]

If this stays where it is, I won't have a 51 point talent in my prot tree till 80/raiding.

[Montoya]

That might depend. Appearently they are making a few new 'cool' talents for Prot and Ret nestled DEEP in the tree's.

[yiptastic]

Well apparently it is in fact 20% of total mana... Holy Paladins are already abusing it and getting 3000 mana back on every Judgment. I think we can assume this talent will be moved deep into Ret when they do the big Paladin pass soon.

It should be 25% of the dmg done from judgement, instead of a flat percentage from total mana.

This talent shouldn't be restricted to ret only. holy will still burn a ton of mana through HL spamming.

[yiptastic]

20 or 25% of total mana is a huge difference from 60% damage done.

yeah, that's why I said this is much better.

[Chumpp]

"JotW was changed to support the new party buff system and it needs to keep that role. That is one of the main reasons why a group would want to take a Ret pally over another dps class. I understand your mana was dependent on this ability. We'll just have to buff that in other ways as well. Having too many talents that just lower mana costs feel like a band-aid, so we'd rather not overdo that route. Instead we'd just like to make sure you have enough mana. The new Divine Plea is one mechanic here (it works more like Blood Rage than Evocate now), but it's not the only one."

This may be it, it may not. Either way I really doubt they'd let ret pallies be oom machines. Also, any word on "the new divine plea?" Perhaps it gives back 25% of your mana instantly then another 25% over 5 seconds (like blood ragE). Definite buff for PvE...possibly anerf for PvP. If you get someone dispel happy that could mean 25% mana, though on the other hand, having to evocate isn't always ideal, either. Meh.

[Chumpp]

It should be 25% of the dmg done from judgement, instead of a flat percentage from total mana.

This talent shouldn't be restricted to ret only. holy will still burn a ton of mana through HL spamming.

Sorry to post twice in a row but...I like where this is going. If it stays like this maybe all us holy pallies (including me) can stop crying, and we can start spamming top rank holy light.

[Montoya]

Sorry to post twice in a row but...I like where this is going. If it stays like this maybe all us holy pallies (including me) can stop crying, and we can start spamming top rank holy light.

Ranks won't exist anymore, so that last comment is moot.

From what I've read, with BoW, and the Replenish effect of JotW, Holy Paladins were doing quite fine.

[yiptastic]

Ranks won't exist anymore, so that last comment is moot.

From what I've read, with BoW, and the Replenish effect of JotW, Holy Paladins were doing quite fine.

With Naxx epics?

how about 51/x/x build?
personally, I think SoL a bad healing talent for holy, and BoL is much better because it allows us to multi-task better. If 51/x/x build is fine, then I won't even bother with all those points in ret. (save for conviction)

[smokeajay]

Considering that most ret paladins, you know, the ones supposed to be using it, will have little more than base mana, we just spent the entirety of our judges' return on a single divine storm.

imo

bug.

Raid situation or no, they would put more thought into it than that, and certainly would consider its impact on how the spec uses it.

It seems more like a quick fix than a change that will make it to Live. My question, from the talk at ElitistJerks, is wouldn't putting JotW deep in the Retribution tree make leveling a new Paladin horrible?

[Chumpp]

Ranks won't exist anymore, so that last comment is moot.

From what I've read, with BoW, and the Replenish effect of JotW, Holy Paladins were doing quite fine.

I know ranks won't exist, I was simply stating that we won't have to use only flash of light to not go OOM in 8 seconds. In case you've missed it, 98% of all threads in the paladin forums have been about how not being able to downrank is the end of the world. (Which I maintain it would have been)

[Kawasaki.gdm]

they wont put too dep in the tree, leveling as ret would be very hard. they could add a talent like improved Judgement of the wise, increasing the mana return from judgements 15/20/25% of the damage done.

So if we start with 10% of dmg from judge, than with talent will be 25%

thats just an idea

[Borg]

Levelling wont be hard at all without it, I mean come on why would we have mana issues? Spamming CS and DS, when do we get these abilities? Level 50 and level 60. I think its safe to assume you'll have picked up the mana return talents by then.

[Kawasaki.gdm]

Levelling wont be hard at all without it, I mean come on why would we have mana issues? Spamming CS and DS, when do we get these abilities? Level 50 and level 60. I think its safe to assume you'll have picked up the mana return talents by then.

yeah, I think you are right, at low levels we dont have CS or DS, and those skill that burn our mana fast.

So JotW can be deep in ret tree, so holy pallys cant get it.

[milkshake619]

yeah, I think you are right, at low levels we dont have CS or DS, and those skill that burn our mana fast.

So JotW can be deep in ret tree, so holy pallys cant get it.

which is exactly as basutai said. so that holy paladins can use it as a self-sustaining healing battery. healers are supposed to go oom, and have dps mana batterys to help prevent them. a healer with infinite mana = broken. if it stays this way, holy palli ms warrior will reign supreme once more. or 3v3 w/ holy pali ms warr and dk

[milkshake619]

when i get home i'll do some calcs on this to see it's effectiveness.