1. #1

    Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    I saw this thread and decided to give it a read...it's scary. Seems like I was mistaken on Enhancement's PvE usefulness and Resto may not be as badass at healing as I assumed from wacthing video's. Elemental otoh seems to be very good but with the recent change to LaB they are back to spamming LB's for the whole fight.

    Anyway give it a read and read through some of the replies as well...if you're not in Beta you can't post but you can read.

    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...09495&sid=2000

  2. #2

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    They're talking about HPS in there... aren't the new ranks of chain heal not even in the game yet? How is she basing her assumptions if she doesn't know what our new top level spells are going to be like?

    Edit:

    After reading through the post, it mostly complains about HPS and mana efficiency. As far as HPS goes, all of our heal spells aren't implemented yet. And as far as mana efficiency goes, I found this stickied blue post at the top of the shaman forum that was posted 3 days ago:

    "We'd like to note that we are currently in the process of revamping the mana cost of new spells, abilities and the new ranks of spells and abilities in the expansion. We are aware players feel the mana cost of certain abilities is too high, and we agree. Though I can't really go into much detail yet as the actual specifics of what's changing is still being debated internally, be rest assured your voice on the issue has been heard and it is one of our top priorities right now.

    We've found the feedback from the players in Alpha and Beta to be more constructive and helpful than ever, and we hope that you continue to give feedback on your experiences in the beta.

    Thanks! : ]

    ~Koraa"


    So, yeah, I think they are worrying about things that are still getting fixed.

  3. #3

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    ^^ Wrong in alot of ways.

    New spell ranks have been put in...Chain Heal was ignored as was previously thought. It is in line with the new talents/heals that act in a similar manner and there's no need to make it the end all best raid heal again. They have put alot of work into balancing classes so that we, the whole playerbase, do not have to be so choosy as to which class/specs to bring.

    That post has been on the beta forums for a long...long...time. It was put up about the second week of beta so it's nothing new and that's why people are begging them to look at our mana costs still, since they still haven't done it.

    What gets me is that Shaman haven't had any type of "polish" or real talk about changes. I know its still beta...but 10/25 man content is being tested and we're still broken...PvP is being tested and we're still broken. How in the world are they supposed to get reliable feedback about classes if they do not FIX the classes until the beta ends? I'm sure we'll be looked at but what sucks is that it will prolly take months for the class to be anywhere near the level they should be.

    And who the hell cares about HPS...they are not talking about HPS they are talking about mana efficiency. Resto goes oom way too easily without the ability to downrank and out of all the healers they have the worst single target heals.

    You must have completely missed the part about Enhancement doing depressing dps. I realize WF is broke on beta atm but it won't be enough to double or triple the dps output currently. Although I am skeptical about hr gear/gems/chants because someone else mentioned she had a 25+% miss/dodge rate which means she is not taking advantage of the enormous amounts of hit on new gear and picking up expertise through gems like she should be.

  4. #4

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Patience.

    Spewing doom and gloom is some folks' forte I know, but there's such a thing as jumping the gun.
    Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hatred, religion, war, or violence.
    I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

    http://mhkeehn.tripod.com/trashcan.jpg
    http://politicalhumor.about.com/libr...s/carville.jpe

    For once, Carville was a man ahead of his time.

  5. #5

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Patience? We have to be. Look at the massive amounts of blue posts druids are getting, almost on a daily basis. And then today, another post about what needs to be done, and more changes.

    What do shamans get. About 1 or 2 lines of cosmetic do nothing fixes. Nothing that really says the direction they want the class to go in.

    It doesn't surprise me that half the class is planning on re-rolling or quitting at this point.

  6. #6

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Ah, you're right Gome. That was 8/6 on that post, I thought it said 9/6, my bad.

    They have made a lot of mention of spirit being more important now and with the lack of downranking, maybe they want us stacking more int/spir/mp5 than +heal for resto. I didn't read up too much on enhance because I play as a resto, so that's the tree I tend to focus on.

    Hopefully they fix that enhance stuff, because the tree is looking a lot more fun now and it would be great for me to use some of this offspec gear I've been gathering.

  7. #7

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewlz
    Ah, you're right Gome. That was 8/6 on that post, I thought it said 9/6, my bad.

    They have made a lot of mention of spirit being more important now and with the lack of downranking, maybe they want us stacking more int/spir/mp5 than +heal for resto. I didn't read up too much on enhance because I play as a resto, so that's the tree I tend to focus on.

    Hopefully they fix that enhance stuff, because the tree is looking a lot more fun now and it would be great for me to use some of this offspec gear I've been gathering.
    I'd also like to know this. Will spirit be a usable stat for shaman? Can we assume this based on the post? Or are we again going to be left out of the loop of what they want for "caster" classes.

    I'm also curious about ToW. Sure it's good now. Much like it was at the beginning of BC the Kara/Mag/Gruul days. However, at it's state at lvl 80, it's not gonna get any better. Thus as progression starts, I think it gets left behind as a reliable raid buff.

  8. #8

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Quote Originally Posted by anyaka21
    I'd also like to know this. Will spirit be a usable stat for shaman? Can we assume this based on the post? Or are we again going to be left out of the loop of what they want for "caster" classes.

    I'm also curious about ToW. Sure it's good now. Much like it was at the beginning of BC the Kara/Mag/Gruul days. However, at it's state at lvl 80, it's not gonna get any better. Thus as progression starts, I think it gets left behind as a reliable raid buff.
    hopefully, we will get some use of spirit, but not, if its gonna replace mp5 on mail items tbh, alot of caster necks/rings are right now with spirit :/

    anyway ToW is HORRIBLE talent, its strong as flametongue, only thing it brings over our base totem, is 3% crit debuff, extremely weak for 41pointer

  9. #9

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz
    hopefully, we will get some use of spirit, but not, if its gonna replace mp5 on mail items tbh, alot of caster necks/rings are right now with spirit :/

    anyway ToW is HORRIBLE talent, its strong as flametongue, only thing it brings over our base totem, is 3% crit debuff, extremely weak for 41pointer
    I said somewhere that i wanted ToW as trainable. I mean, yea its a very week final talent. at 70. i never got it when i went enhance haha. I always got nature's swiftness. Thats when GW wasnt instant cast with talent.
    Do not underestimate us.

  10. #10

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    naa please, no ToW trainable, its only "unique" ability eleshaman has left, debuffing totem! leave it to us, so u dont have to worry about coverning most of the casters and bosses and their trash at once with a totem

  11. #11

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz

    anyway ToW is HORRIBLE talent, its strong as flametongue, only thing it brings over our base totem, is 3% crit debuff, extremely weak for 41pointer
    Not sure which incarnation of ToW you are referring to but in beta it is extremely nice. It adds 160 spell dmg to every caster in the raid (as long as they are in range) and also increases crit chance by 3% for casters in range.

    I realize it doesn't scale past lvl 80 but imo it doesn't need to. Warlocks don't ever stop using Fel Armor because that 100spell dmg isn't scaling...nor will we ever stop dropping the totem. It's a guaranteed 3% crit and 160 dmg on a totem element that really has no better option in a raid setting. Flametongue totem could be useful...but in all honesty you only save 1 point by not takign ToW and using FT Tot instead...and even then you are losing 3% crit to everyone.

    Another reason why ToW > Flametongue Totem is that Flametongue is a weapon imbue which means no oils/other weapon imbue's can be added, whereas ToW is a character buff and would still allow oils and what not to be applied. In the end its a 160 dmg 3% crit buff for every caster in range...thats not bad at all. The only way to make it scale would be to have it increase spell damage by a % of the shamans spell dmg or a % of the affected members spell dmg.

  12. #12

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Quote Originally Posted by Gomexus
    Not sure which incarnation of ToW you are referring to but in beta it is extremely nice. It adds 160 spell dmg to every caster in the raid (as long as they are in range) and also increases crit chance by 3% for casters in range.

    I realize it doesn't scale past lvl 80 but imo it doesn't need to. Warlocks don't ever stop using Fel Armor because that 100spell dmg isn't scaling...nor will we ever stop dropping the totem. It's a guaranteed 3% crit and 160 dmg on a totem element that really has no better option in a raid setting. Flametongue totem could be useful...but in all honesty you only save 1 point by not takign ToW and using FT Tot instead...and even then you are losing 3% crit to everyone.

    Another reason why ToW > Flametongue Totem is that Flametongue is a weapon imbue which means no oils/other weapon imbue's can be added, whereas ToW is a character buff and would still allow oils and what not to be applied. In the end its a 160 dmg 3% crit buff for every caster in range...thats not bad at all. The only way to make it scale would be to have it increase spell damage by a % of the shamans spell dmg or a % of the affected members spell dmg.
    im not sure what totems are u reffering to

    ToW = 160 dmg, and 3% crit "debuff" on monsters in range
    flametongue totem, talented = 165dmg, and not weapon imbue
    also, fel armor is selfbuff, its different, demonic pact is counterpart to ToW, and its 10% of lock SP, simply scalling with better gear, and already better on t7 raid levels, so i dont see, why ToW shouldnt be also 8-10% of our SP, prolly 10%, since we tend to have abit less SP than locks, and to fel armor, u didnt noticed the part, when its increasing spelldmg based on spirit?
    chack it out http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=47893

  13. #13

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz
    im not sure what totems are u reffering to

    ToW = 160 dmg, and 3% crit "debuff" on monsters in range
    flametongue totem, talented = 165dmg, and not weapon imbue
    also, fel armor is selfbuff, its different, demonic pact is counterpart to ToW, and its 10% of lock SP, simply scalling with better gear, and already better on t7 raid levels, so i dont see, why ToW shouldnt be also 8-10% of our SP, prolly 10%, since we tend to have abit less SP than locks, and to fel armor, u didnt noticed the part, when its increasing spelldmg based on spirit?
    chack it out http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=47893
    Since when is flametongue totem NOT a weapon imbue? Windfury totem and Flametongue totem are both imbues on Live atm...I realize WF Totem has been changed...but when did Flametongue totem change? The buff will still be applied to your weapon...not your character. If the buff is applied to your weapon...oils cannot be...just like rogues cannot apply poisons...warriors can't use stones...etc. If it has been changed in beta I apologize for overlooking it.

    My Fel Armor example was from Live currently. It does not scale currently but every lock keeps it up almost 100% of the time because 100spell dmg is better than nothing...which will be the same as ToW.

    Are we sure it's a crit debuff? Depending on how you read it it's funny. It could be a typo that should be

    "...increases chance to crit by 3% against all enemies, 40 yard range." Implying the totem has a 40yd range and increases crit by 3%

    -or-

    "...increases the chance enemies within range of the totem will be crit by spells by 3%, 40 yd range." Which would make it work as you suggest.

    -or-

    "...increases chance to crit with spells by 3% if the mob is within range of the totem, 40 yard range." Which would be the same as increasing personal crit chance by 3% if you and your target are within range of the totem, except no bonus crit chance if the mob is outside of totem range.

    Does ToW affect healing? I would assume it does. ToW is more mana efficient than FT Totem and over the course of a fight saving 6% base mana every 2 mins is huge...at the cost of +5 spell dmg. ToW only costs 1 talent point whereas improved FT costs 3 points and is stacked against 10% intellect for T1 in Enhancement.


    Again forgive me if I am wrong on any of my interpretations and/or mechanics. I have just heard very good things from testers about how awesome ToW is and have seen alot of posts from non-beta's saying it is crap.

    Edit: Just read Flametongue Totem description and it's not an imbue from the sounds of it it is a buff so I apologize .

  14. #14

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    1. Raid wide totems are going to require alot of cooperation amongst the shaman in the raid. Since I'm not sure what will stack and what wont, I can't really say anything for sure. ToW is pretty sick, 160 spell damage and 3% crit to the entire raid is pretty amazing. Granted there is only a need for 1 elem shaman now, unless they really kill at DPS. I hope ToW and flametongue stack, because both the crit and damage from ToW is strictly damage, while flametongue is damage and healing.

    2. I haven't seen a post as of yet that mentions spirit helping shaman at all. I think I have seen a piece of mail that has spirit, but most don't, so I really dont know what to say. I wish they would...it really makes no sense why every other caster class gets something from spirit, but we dont get anything. The problem with spirit is that we would need a talent to turn spirit into mp5...which we don't have. Druids have intensity, and priests have meditation, which allows up to 30% of your regen to occur during casting. I would actually really like this change. This would allow shaman to not waste a stat, and allow us to steal from other healing classes more effectively(more shaman in cloth IMO). It would also mean our regen will scale with kings and Divine Spirit.

    3. The chain heal thing is to be expected. After BT, most of the top 100 guilds stacked 3 or 4 resto shaman in a raid to just spam chain heal... I figured they would do something about it. My personal theory is that the dev's took chain heal out of the picture, and added the crit factor to our rotation to compensate for the healing output, without working the mana issue. LHW and HW are the most inefficient spells we have, so of course spamming those is going to run us out of mana. I think dev's thought the crit would make up for the loss of the OP chain heal, but it just hasn't worked out, and will need to be looked at. Mana isn't as easy to predict as healing output, so I will likely guess that dev's just haven't looked at it yet.

    Remember this is testing for a reason. Things probably wont work quite as smoothly as expected. As it was said in the linked wowforums thread, damage output is pretty well worked out, with only a few bugs. This is the biggest concern to devs, because it gets the most feedback. Look at the number of blue posts concerning healing...hardly any. Most are concerning dps class mechanics. I don't think this is because blizzard hates healers... It is just harder to predict and change healing until you actually do some testing.

  15. #15

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Quote Originally Posted by Kozikk
    1. Raid wide totems are going to require alot of cooperation amongst the shaman in the raid. Since I'm not sure what will stack and what wont, I can't really say anything for sure. ToW is pretty sick, 160 spell damage and 3% crit to the entire raid is pretty amazing. Granted there is only a need for 1 elem shaman now, unless they really kill at DPS. I hope ToW and flametongue stack, because both the crit and damage from ToW is strictly damage, while flametongue is damage and healing.

    2. I haven't seen a post as of yet that mentions spirit helping shaman at all. I think I have seen a piece of mail that has spirit, but most don't, so I really dont know what to say. I wish they would...it really makes no sense why every other caster class gets something from spirit, but we dont get anything. The problem with spirit is that we would need a talent to turn spirit into mp5...which we don't have. Druids have intensity, and priests have meditation, which allows up to 30% of your regen to occur during casting. I would actually really like this change. This would allow shaman to not waste a stat, and allow us to steal from other healing classes more effectively(more shaman in cloth IMO). It would also mean our regen will scale with kings and Divine Spirit.

    3. The chain heal thing is to be expected. After BT, most of the top 100 guilds stacked 3 or 4 resto shaman in a raid to just spam chain heal... I figured they would do something about it. My personal theory is that the dev's took chain heal out of the picture, and added the crit factor to our rotation to compensate for the healing output, without working the mana issue. LHW and HW are the most inefficient spells we have, so of course spamming those is going to run us out of mana. I think dev's thought the crit would make up for the loss of the OP chain heal, but it just hasn't worked out, and will need to be looked at. Mana isn't as easy to predict as healing output, so I will likely guess that dev's just haven't looked at it yet.

    Remember this is testing for a reason. Things probably wont work quite as smoothly as expected. As it was said in the linked wowforums thread, damage output is pretty well worked out, with only a few bugs. This is the biggest concern to devs, because it gets the most feedback. Look at the number of blue posts concerning healing...hardly any. Most are concerning dps class mechanics. I don't think this is because blizzard hates healers... It is just harder to predict and change healing until you actually do some testing.
    In terms of the spirit thing, I really don't think it would be that hard to incorporate. As far as elementals go, change unrelenting storm to a 3 point spirit based talent. For resto, maybe add it on to something like healing way or natures blessing.

  16. #16

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Quote Originally Posted by Kozikk
    1. Raid wide totems are going to require alot of cooperation amongst the shaman in the raid. Since I'm not sure what will stack and what wont, I can't really say anything for sure. ToW is pretty sick, 160 spell damage and 3% crit to the entire raid is pretty amazing. Granted there is only a need for 1 elem shaman now, unless they really kill at DPS. I hope ToW and flametongue stack, because both the crit and damage from ToW is strictly damage, while flametongue is damage and healing.

    2. I haven't seen a post as of yet that mentions spirit helping shaman at all. I think I have seen a piece of mail that has spirit, but most don't, so I really dont know what to say. I wish they would...it really makes no sense why every other caster class gets something from spirit, but we dont get anything. The problem with spirit is that we would need a talent to turn spirit into mp5...which we don't have. Druids have intensity, and priests have meditation, which allows up to 30% of your regen to occur during casting. I would actually really like this change. This would allow shaman to not waste a stat, and allow us to steal from other healing classes more effectively(more shaman in cloth IMO). It would also mean our regen will scale with kings and Divine Spirit.

    3. The chain heal thing is to be expected. After BT, most of the top 100 guilds stacked 3 or 4 resto shaman in a raid to just spam chain heal... I figured they would do something about it. My personal theory is that the dev's took chain heal out of the picture, and added the crit factor to our rotation to compensate for the healing output, without working the mana issue. LHW and HW are the most inefficient spells we have, so of course spamming those is going to run us out of mana. I think dev's thought the crit would make up for the loss of the OP chain heal, but it just hasn't worked out, and will need to be looked at. Mana isn't as easy to predict as healing output, so I will likely guess that dev's just haven't looked at it yet.

    Remember this is testing for a reason. Things probably wont work quite as smoothly as expected. As it was said in the linked wowforums thread, damage output is pretty well worked out, with only a few bugs. This is the biggest concern to devs, because it gets the most feedback. Look at the number of blue posts concerning healing...hardly any. Most are concerning dps class mechanics. I don't think this is because blizzard hates healers... It is just harder to predict and change healing until you actually do some testing.
    ToW isnt sick by any means

    compare it to the flametnogue, i did it few posts up the page already

    ToW = 160dmg
    flametongue = 165 dmg (granted, talented, but enha shamans has it in all of their builds and its not like they have any other fire totem to use)

    so only thing, what ToW improves is 3% crit debuff (go read mmo description, if u dont believe me )

    also the dmg part is not scalleable, whereas for example imp. DS is scalleable (granted, that one will hardly surpass it 6% of spirit isnt much tbh) but for example demonic pact IS scalleable, 10% of his SP to the raid? surpasses ToW power even before raiding, somewhere in mid to high 70s, that is silly, ToW should be scalleable also, since its eleshaman only reliable semi-unique buff he provides

  17. #17

    Re: Sham thoughts after 25man Naxx

    Quote Originally Posted by anyaka21
    Patience? We have to be. Look at the massive amounts of blue posts druids are getting, almost on a daily basis. And then today, another post about what needs to be done, and more changes.

    What do shamans get. About 1 or 2 lines of cosmetic do nothing fixes. Nothing that really says the direction they want the class to go in.

    It doesn't surprise me that half the class is planning on re-rolling or quitting at this point.
    The Problem with that is that all classes who got this many posts have Ghostcrawler as their Lead-Designer, and we got Koraa who is responsible for us and ignoring most of the Posts in the Schaman Forum. But we´re not alone, look at the Priests they´re in the same boat.


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