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  1. #41

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Just hand another one come to me I really like.

    A big argument for why paladins haven't done high DPS in the past is our ability to heal. But, as most of us know, we don't have the mana to use those heals to any real effect.
    How about this in ret?

    Hands of the Prophet (2 talent points)
    Gives Paladin a 25/50% chance when casting a hand spell to cause the paladins next Holy Light to be instant cast and cost 25/50% less mana. The next holy light must be cast within 10 sec. to receive this effect.
    WTB Spell/Grammer check?

  2. #42

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamonious
    Just hand another one come to me I really like.

    A big argument for why paladins haven't done high DPS in the past is our ability to heal. But, as most of us know, we don't have the mana to use those heals to any real effect.
    How about this in ret?

    Hands of the Prophet (2 talent points)
    Gives Paladin a 25/50% chance when casting a hand spell to cause the paladins next Holy Light to be instant cast and cost 25/50% less mana. The next holy light must be cast within 10 sec. to receive this effect.
    Sorry have to disagree with you. Rets are for damage, holys can keep holy light An emergency heal is what we can do and all we should be able to do.
    Statistically speaking, you are an average player. Learn to live with it.

  3. #43

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamonious
    Just hand another one come to me I really like.

    A big argument for why paladins haven't done high DPS in the past is our ability to heal. But, as most of us know, we don't have the mana to use those heals to any real effect.
    How about this in ret?

    Hands of the Prophet (2 talent points)
    Gives Paladin a 25/50% chance when casting a hand spell to cause the paladins next Holy Light to be instant cast and cost 25/50% less mana. The next holy light must be cast within 10 sec. to receive this effect.
    I like the idea of getting an unexpected surprise from using a hand spell (I sure as hell would use them a lot more if I thought I'd be getting swanky bonus heals out of em).

    The IDEA is very cool, but your numbers are off. However, because none of us are Blizzard employees and this is all for the sake of fun and discussion, I don't think it's ever fair to comment or criticize an idea based on the numbers we just plugged in to get the point across. I say, balancing, tweaking, play-testing are only important if you're getting paid for it.

    However, if you want feedback on the numbers, I will say that the chance to occur is far too high; something on the order of 10/20% might be better, but that still feels a bit too high. Instant cast is great, but the reduced costs are a little too high also. But the idea is nice.

    Also; is this prot or Ret? It feels like Protection, and would compliment Divine Favor very nicely.
    - Renowned expert in the field of Paladinery -
    - & Author of -
    The Highly Acclaimed "Reinvention" Threads
    North Lordaeron - Stratholme
    - Angor Coast-

  4. #44

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcstu
    Sorry have to disagree with you. Rets are for damage, holys can keep holy light An emergency heal is what we can do and all we should be able to do.
    I agree completely thats what made me think of using the hand spells. Since there cooldowns are
    2/3/5(3 talented) min. This effect wouldn't be up on a constant bases at all. By doing this it would also encourage ret paladins to use there hand spells more often in PVE by rewarding them with a heal. A heal that very possibly could be needed by the paly since Seal of Blood seems to be the more popular raiding seal.

    I by no means think a paly should have to step back and heal on every fight, but the occasional instant holy light patch heal can go a long way toward proving our worth as a hybrid class. Not to mention, instant heals in pvp are nice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Retrogames
    Also; is this prot or Ret? It feels like Protection, and would compliment Divine Favor very nicely.
    You know Im not sure. I think Almost any paladin could use this. The question is at what point is it OP for a holy paly to have instant holy lights. I think Tier 4 ret or prot is agood place for this talent. At the least that will make Holy go deep into those specs to pick it up.
    WTB Spell/Grammer check?

  5. #45

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamonious
    You know Im not sure. I think Almost any paladin could use this. The question is at what point is it OP for a holy paly to have instant holy lights. I think Tier 4 ret or prot is agood place for this talent. At the least that will make Holy go deep into those specs to pick it up.
    Would be interesting in Protection, 4th Tier. If you moved Imp. Hammer of Justice to Ret (as I've always felt it should be), that'd be a nice spot for it. If it also required you to get Guardian's Favor first (although the 3rd tier of Prot is crowded, so you'd have to shift things around a bit...), that would also control it a little.
    - Renowned expert in the field of Paladinery -
    - & Author of -
    The Highly Acclaimed "Reinvention" Threads
    North Lordaeron - Stratholme
    - Angor Coast-

  6. #46

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    i've wanted offensive auras for awhile. all auras (or ret aura) cause casting costs of those within 30 yds to increase by x%. this would replace the 11 point SoCo which would be trainable as it is required by ret and useless to both holy and prot. itd also be nice if all auras had this kind of effect baseline. this would give nice tree synergy as well giving others a little incentive to join our tree. or maybe increase spell pusback by x% if theyre looking for a ret focused point. (could even put a "on first hit against a casting target, spell casting time is reset to 0, a fair pally interrupt) originality.
    it seems like theyve been afraid to give us new abilities based on keeping pallies slightly original.. the new wings ignoring % dmg reduc is a nice original ret ability.

    i'd also like to see a change in bubble. i find that people simply assume i'm a bubble. and thats it. so maybe 20-30 second cooldown, reduces all damage taken to 0 and temporarily phases out loss of control mechanics (meaning theyd be reapplied at the end) lasting for a short duration, possibly 3 seconds. nothing is removed, cleanse is still usable, mobility and utility is gained. no gcd, allowing for instant use of cleanse or heal. prolly not the place for this... i'm also sure theres a ret use for forbearance, i liked choosing between dps and survival.

    change of the new whirlwind to no mana cost, adds a 5-6 second forbearance. not activatable while forbearance is applied
    thisd assure our mana remains constant but still finite due to heals and crus.

    the new bubble would also add 10 seconds of forbearance, so using these different abilities can end in being unable to kill a target or dying. notactivatable while forbearance is applied
    activating aw could add 20 seconds of forbearance to whatever is already there, being the only forbearance ability usable while there is already forbearance.

    these can of course be applied to talents somewhere and i feel would make an overall better class, while not being op. there are drawbacks. our mana is finite, essentially slightly better than it is right now (jotw needs a slight buff). there isn't too much survivabilty or dps. greater utility for a holy pally as well (considering there are no pallies in the current arena end game) and better tanking if the new bubble didn't remove threat (its got a short duration and is simply a damage reduc)

    so yeah.. got on a little tangent there.. dont need to point that out

    I felt like putting a bullet between the eyes of every Panda that wouldn't screw to save its species
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Illidan&n=Sinders

  7. #47

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    I was thinking something like a treinable skill, to be usefull even when we are not ret spec'd, somethink like crusader strike and we can use on our rotations:

    Rigtheous Strike (something like that)
    10% of base mana 5 yd range
    Instant cast 3, 4 sec cooldown (to not be spammable)
    Instant atack that causes 50% weap damage and 50% holy damage (50% holy based on spell damge and ap, we can use it when farming as holy spec or something, tanking too dunno).

    think we need something like this, dunno.
    *sorry about my english, its horrible i know ;(

  8. #48

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by mvamorim
    I was thinking something like a treinable skill, to be usefull even when we are not ret spec'd, somethink like crusader strike and we can use on our rotations:

    Rigtheous Strike (something like that)
    10% of base mana 5 yd range
    Instant cast 3, 4 sec cooldown (to not be spammable)
    Instant atack that causes 50% weap damage and 50% holy damage (50% holy based on spell damge and ap, we can use it when farming as holy spec or something, tanking too dunno).

    think we need something like this, dunno.
    *sorry about my english, its horrible i know ;(
    I think your english is fine....

    This seems alot like what your describing though.

    Shield of Rightousness
    Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage equal to 200% of your block value. This spell causes a high amount of threat.
    6% of base mana, 5 yd range, Instant cast, 6 sec cooldown

    Its not another on demand weapon attack, but it is baseline instant damage on a low cooldown. Im sure by the time this goes live someone will have worked out an equip macro so we can use this as ret as well.
    WTB Spell/Grammer check?

  9. #49

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Deep Prot:
    Righteous Defender
    reduces the cool down on righteous defense by 2, 4, 7, secs and has a 33/66/100% chance to place a defensive remnant on the target, causing the next damage to the target within 5 secs to judge the enemy for normal Judgement damage and incapacitating the attacker for 4 secs. Damage causes threat to the paladin.

    Hand of Reckoning.
    Each attack has a 100% chance to deal an extra attack for the next 8 secs or 4 weapon swings, whichever occurs first. 30 second cooldown.

    Ret (baseline or talent)

    Hand of Justice
    Places a magical hand on the target, hampering movement speed until the target is exhausted. Slows movement speed by 25% ever sec for 4 secs, after the target regains 10% movement speed a sec until fully recovered. 30 yards, 45 sec cooldown.

  10. #50

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Deep ret - Death coil aura

    Causes all hostile targets within 30 yards to run in horror for 3 sec every 3 seconds and causes X Holy damage. The caster gains 9999% of the damage caused in health. Also it makes you an epic flying mount.

  11. #51

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by criticize
    Deep Prot:
    Righteous Defender
    reduces the cool down on righteous defense by 2, 4, 7, secs and has a 33/66/100% chance to place a defensive remnant on the target, causing the next damage to the target within 5 secs to judge the enemy for normal Judgement damage and incapacitating the attacker for 4 secs. Damage causes threat to the paladin.

    Hand of Reckoning.
    Each attack has a 100% chance to deal an extra attack for the next 8 secs or 4 weapon swings, whichever occurs first. 30 second cooldown.


    Ret (baseline or talent)

    Hand of Justice
    Places a magical hand on the target, hampering movement speed until the target is exhausted. Slows movement speed by 25% ever sec for 4 secs, after the target regains 10% movement speed a sec until fully recovered. 30 yards, 45 sec cooldown.
    I especially love that idea, making reckoning into a hand ability. Hell to replace the more or less redundant talent, replace it with that idea. Sure gives prot pally some pvp edge to it Though if it were to be like that maybe have a higher CD? every 30 seconds, though nice, would be a lot to ask :P

    Armoury Link

    Nil desperandum! Always follow the Light

  12. #52

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by naypalmacus
    I especially love that idea, making reckoning into a hand ability. Hell to replace the more or less redundant talent, replace it with that idea. Sure gives prot pally some pvp edge to it Though if it were to be like that maybe have a higher CD? every 30 seconds, though nice, would be a lot to ask :P
    If you think about it that's just slightly over 25% up time. Depending on the amount of damage auto attacks do account for DPS wise, I wouldn't expect to much of a change.

  13. #53

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Confession (Improved Repentance)
    - When your repentance expires or is dispelled, 100% chance to root the victim for X seconds.

    Improved Consecration
    - Apply a debuff on enemies afflicted by consecration. When the victims leave the radius of consecration, slow them by X % for Y seconds.


    The repentance one may be a lil too much but that's something we could use.
    The consecration one can be a good pve and pvp talent.

    Thoughts?

  14. #54

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moar Pew Pew
    If you think about it that's just slightly over 25% up time. Depending on the amount of damage auto attacks do account for DPS wise, I wouldn't expect to much of a change.
    Fair enough, however to have it on demand rather than hope and a prayer for a proc (i usually stick 1 talent point in for reckoning sake) is more pvp like. It would also be far more useful in pve, as you would be able to determine when you want extra threat, stack up more SoV faster or get that JoW proc thats been elusive after the 4sec CD. Keep it on 30CD, does me just as fine even if it were on a 1min CD as I said. I'd love another on demand ability, much like how ret has Hand of Salvation to use. This could be prots 'hand' as it were

    Quote Originally Posted by katasta
    Confession (Improved Repentance)
    - When your repentance expires or is dispelled, 100% chance to root the victim for X seconds.

    Improved Consecration
    - Apply a debuff on enemies afflicted by consecration. When the victims leave the radius of consecration, slow them by X % for Y seconds.


    The repentance one may be a lil too much but that's something we could use.
    The consecration one can be a good pve and pvp talent.

    Thoughts?
    I've always liked the idea of a debuff being applied to all affected characters in concecration, though more so to damage, or an extra dot in case they go running out of the area of effect. A slow would be grand, though in my view an overall slow to all swings, cast and movement. Def help out prot pally pvp, if they even will consider the option. Though not hard to see not to given prot warriors now are built with pvp in mind.

    Saying all that I cant say I will pvp as prot, unless its another 'Drek in AV' style pvp :P

    Armoury Link

    Nil desperandum! Always follow the Light

  15. #55

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by naypalmacus
    I especially love that idea, making reckoning into a hand ability. Hell to replace the more or less redundant talent, replace it with that idea. Sure gives prot pally some pvp edge to it Though if it were to be like that maybe have a higher CD? every 30 seconds, though nice, would be a lot to ask :P
    Thanks

    I've been thinking about it a lot. You know, blizz opened up a huge avenue with hand spells. Essentially they can roll back to vanilla wow beta. Have a few good short cd hand spells that augment what the pally needs at the time. Even have divine plea into a short cd hand spell.

    Divine Plea (hand) self only
    Instantly regenerate 30% base mana and 3% total mana every sec for 6 seconds. 2 min CD

    Can't be OP cause you can only have 1 hand per paladin at a time etc...

  16. #56

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by naypalmacus
    Fair enough, however to have it on demand rather than hope and a prayer for a proc (i usually stick 1 talent point in for reckoning sake) is more pvp like. It would also be far more useful in pve, as you would be able to determine when you want extra threat, stack up more SoV faster or get that JoW proc thats been elusive after the 4sec CD. Keep it on 30CD, does me just as fine even if it were on a 1min CD as I said. I'd love another on demand ability, much like how ret has Hand of Salvation to use. This could be prots 'hand' as it were
    Hand of reckoning baseline,

    Improved Hand of Reckoning 3 ranks
    Reduces the cooldown of Hand of Reckoning by 2/4/6 seconds. Additionally, attacks made during hand of reckoning have a 3/7/10% increased chance to crit (or hit ) whatever is more balanced.

  17. #57

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inept
    Ok.. How about a talent called "Go into the Light" When it's used, it blinds your enemy, turning their screen pure white for 8 seconds. You can still move, attack and use all abilities.... you just.. can't see...

    Make it a 2-2.5 second cast. Either that or have it effect anyone in a certain range and make it a channeled cast.

    Edit: My bad, just read post above mine.. Very similar. We think alike. The blinding effect would be fun though.
    lol @ the people who think their computer crashed and hold down the power button just as the screen turns back to normal.
    "Whenever i crit 10 times in a row on resto druid and can't kill it i exit wow, go outside... walk a bit and find a kitty and beat the fucking shit out of it and throw it in a bush."

    -Venator

  18. #58

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retrogames
    Would be interesting in Protection, 4th Tier. If you moved Imp. Hammer of Justice to Ret (as I've always felt it should be), that'd be a nice spot for it. If it also required you to get Guardian's Favor first (although the 3rd tier of Prot is crowded, so you'd have to shift things around a bit...), that would also control it a little.
    Totally agrees with you.
    Move imp hammer of justice to the retri tree, and let us protadins get deflection in return. Ive never understood what that talent does in the retri tree anyway.

  19. #59

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    My suggestions for prot talent:
    Shield of Templer is removed and combined with Guarded by Light.
    new Prot T10 talent:
    Seal of Avenger(?/3)
    Your seals has %(33/66/100) chance to proc another seal:
    Seal of Wisdom->Seal of Light
    Seal of Righteousness->Seal of Vengeance(Corruption)
    Seal of Command->Seal of Matyr(Blood) with no damaging yourself

    A seperated idea:

    Shield of Templer is combined with Guarded by Light and redesigned:
    Shield of Templer: Reduces Your Avenger's Shield ability's casting time and global cool down by (0.16/0.32/0.50) second when you are in combat . In addition, When your seal procs or damage over time seals does damage, you have %(4/7/10) chance of refreshing the cooldown of your Avenger's Shield ability and reducing its cost by 100%, for 25 sec.

  20. #60

    Re: [Brain Storm] Fun Talent ideas late in Prot or Ret.

    >ponders< Some ideas I've had whilst waiting for Wrath that might help improve the Retribution, and Protection trees, make them more Fun

    Art of War - Ever since the original art of war was nerfed, I have felt that the name does not match the effect... Moving the current effect of Art of War to Divine Purpose, since it seems more... appropriate

    On your successful Crusaders Strike Crits, you have a 33/66/100% chance to gain the Art of War. The next 1/2/3 targets you hit with your Crusaders Strike, Commanding Strike See below or Divine Storm will be silenced (or perhaps interrupted, if silence is too powerful) for 1/2/3 seconds. This spell has diminishing returns

    or

    Art of War

    Your successful Crusaders Strike has a 33/66/100% chance of reducing the total spellpower of your target by 5/10/15%

    Something needs to be tacked onto Crusaders Strike... the way I see it, Art of War will be taken by PvPers, since the bonuses are no use to PvE'ers.. but this gives out a problem with Crusaders Strike... there is nothing on there that benifits a group... how about a blast from the past...

    Crusaders Strike

    An instant strike that causes 110% of weapon damage, and increases the damage taken by the target by 1% for 10 seconds *stacks 3 times*

    Useful? Not? How will it stack with other raid buffs? That is something yet to be thought out!



    Commanding Strike

    I have always destested Seal of Command with an absolute passion, its just not fun waiting for a proc to cause your DPS. This, I feel is a suitable replacement. It also gets over the issue of controlable damage, the overpowerdness of Judgement of Command, and gives Paladins something they have always wanted, a second strike

    (8 second cooldown, 14% base mana)
    Your next melee attack will cause an extra 70% (or 50% if thats too strong) weapon damage, and will daze the target for 4 seconds

    Improved Retribution Aura

    but this talent is where Judgement of the Wise is now... simple consolidation, the old effect of Imp. Ret aura, is gone

    Your Retribution Aura also increases melee and spell haste by 2/4/6% and Damage by 1/2/3%

    Judgement of the Wise
    I like what is currently implemented, bug or not... but its where Swift Retribution is now

    Your Judgement spells have a 33/66/100% chance of granting replenishment to up to 10 members of your party, and replenishing 20% of your maximum mana

    The last major hurdle the Paladin must cross, is getting to their opponent... And look at that, there is a 21 point ability free from Consolidation of the Retribution Aura talents... I wonder what might go there...

    Holy Rush

    Working name, its terrible, I know

    30 second Cooldown, 20% Base Mana
    Charge at the target, Silencing the target, if the target is hit. If the target was casting a spell, that spell school is locked out for x seconds. six? eight? four? whatevers balanced

    So this still leaves 2 talent points where Imp Ret aura once was... lets put Imp Hammer of Justice there instead, fresh from the Prot tree, but changed, just a little

    Improved Hammer of Justice

    Decreases the cooldown of your Hammer of Justice spell by 10/20 seconds

    and before I move on to prot, one last change which really needs to be done...

    Righteous Vengence

    Increases the critical damage bonus of your Commanding Strike, Crusaders Strike and Divine Storm by 5/10/15/20/25%

    Protection

    How to make Protection "Fun" is difficult. What exactly IS fun? Is standing there, tanking 10 mobs spamming concecrate fun? I never thought so... I always wanted Protection to be more interactive. And by the looks of the beta, it seems to be

    First things first, Blessing of Kings has become baseline. That means, we need a new 11 point talent. A major problem Prot Paladins have is against Spellcasters. there is virtually no way to mitigate spelldamage. The weakness to silencing and Mana Draining effects is damaging too, there will be several ways to fix this problem. Also to compensate certian issues, the base health for Paladins will be increased to something similar to the base health of Warriors and Death Knights

    Silencing Strike

    10% base mana, 15 second cooldown
    An instant strike which causes Holy Damage (decided by SP and AP) and interrupts spell casting.

    Shield of the Templar

    Your Avengers Shield also has a 33/66/100% chance to silence the first target it hits, for 4 seconds

    Improved Holy Shield

    Current Imp. Holy Shield is baked into original Holy Shield talent... Holy Shield has taken the place of Blessing of Santuary, and Imp Holy Shield has taken the place of Spell Warding

    You have a chance absorb the damage caused by a harmful spell equal to 50/100% of your Block Value, This consumes a charge of Holy Shield, and can only occur once every 5 seconds

    Guarded by the Light

    Mana reduction talent, gone, baked into original spells both it, and Shield of the Templar had... except concecration

    Your Protection spells have a 50/100% chance of being immune to Silence effects

    Sanctified Ground (was Blessing of Sanctuary, now where Holy Shield is)

    7% base Mana, instant cast, 30 second cooldown
    Sanctifies the all the ground which the Paladin is standing on within 5 yards of him/her. All Party or Raid members standing on Sanctified Ground will gain Sanctuary.

    Sanctuary reduces damage taken by 3%. In addition, when the player blocks, dodges, parries or is missed by a Melee attack, they regain 10 Rage, 20 Runic Power, or 2% of total mana. Sanctuary is lost when the player leaves Sanctified Ground.

    If I were to have just one of the talents I've listed above... it would HAVE to be this one. It just sounds so awsome, you place a circle on the ground, and everything in it, is sanctified...

    Now to clean up some talents...

    Sacred Duty and Divine Guardian are all rolled into one two point Divine Guardian spell, right where it is at the moment, looking something like this


    Divine Guardian

    Reduces the Cooldown of your Hand of Protection and Divine Protection Spells by 30/60 seconds. In addition, while Divine Shield is active 15/30% of the damage taken by all party or raid members within 30 yards is redirected to the Paladin

    Reckoning

    Gives a 2/4/6/8/10% chance after blocking (or parrying?) any attack, that the next four weapon swings in 8 seconds will generate an aditional attack
    Fixes the backwards scaling of Reckoning

    One Handed Weapon Speciality

    Increases all damage delt when wielding a one handed weapon by 2/4/6/8/10%

    Ardent Defender

    You have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance that any attack that would kill you, will instead heal you for half the amount of damage the attack would cause. This effect can only happen once every 3 minutes. Avoids attacks jumping over the 35% mark

    Redoubt

    No longer shackled to Shield Specialization. but otherwise the same

    No idea where this next talent should go, but it just stinks of plain awsomeness


    Fist of Uther
    You can wield a two handed weapon in a single hand. Whilst wielding a two handed weapon, you can only use Protection Abilities

    So, a shield in one hand, a massive two hander in the other, isn't that how a Paladin should be?

    Anyway, proberly imba, proberly useless, but hope there are some useful ideas in there somewhere


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