Metamorphosis and Ruin changes here

[Raptorg]

ruin being 5 points is fine... frost mages use 5, fire mages use 5, shadow priests will now use 5, moonkin 5... i think the only caster that doesnt need 5 points for 100% crit damage is elemental shaman

fire mages are at 10 points actually.. but they gain a greater benefit in general because they stack together for an insane boost to crits(245% i believe? o.0)

50% on burnout and 60% on Ignite

[Deleted]

1) they are still testing dps in beta
2) ruin doubles crits of your destr spells.. haunt is affliction

Haunt can crit, And, ATM SB is roughly 60% of your dmg done as affliction, But yeah, theyr still testing, and it looks pretty convincing

[MortuariusBC]

Haunt can crit, And, ATM SB is roughly 60% of your dmg done as affliction, But yeah, theyr still testing, and it looks pretty convincing

I didnt say haunt couldnt crit
But ruin only increases the critical strike damage of your DESTRUCTION spells...

[Raptorg]

I didnt say haunt couldnt crit
But ruin only increases the critical strike damage of your DESTRUCTION spells...

1 of those flaws with giving all classes ruin.. i personally think they should put ruin into cataclysm, leave devastation where it is, and put something new in ruin's place

I think having to put 5 points into a talent that won't give you as much benefit as it implies it will, is a bit OTT

putting it into cataclysm(making it 3 points 33/66/100%) makes/gives it

-more accessible
-a proper benefit for a proper amount of points(5 is too much, 3 is acceptable)
-and won't change a thing for destruction

arcane/frost mages, for example, get 100% benefit from their crit talent, affliction locks get only 60% of it(due to shadowbolt being about 60% of their damage, and it's likely to get even lower due to the insane boost to DoTs)

arcane/fire mages have this synergy as well, with ignite


this also happens for other classes

warriors: debatable due to fury's high white damage, but their yellow damage gains the same boost as an arms warrior's
rogues all get the same out of lethality
hunters same as rogues


only affliction locks and demo locks gain LESS from such a talent, and I think that's enough of a reason to lower the amount of points for it


but that's just my opinion

[MortuariusBC]

1 of those flaws with giving all classes ruin.. i personally think they should put ruin into cataclysm, leave devastation where it is, and put something new in ruin's place

I think having to put 5 points into a talent that won't give you as much benefit as it implies it will, is a bit OTT

putting it into cataclysm(making it 3 points 33/66/100%) makes/gives it

-more accessible
-a proper benefit for a proper amount of points(5 is too much, 3 is acceptable)
-and won't change a thing for destruction

arcane/frost mages, for example, get 100% benefit from their crit talent, affliction locks get only 60% of it(due to shadowbolt being about 60% of their damage, and it's likely to get even lower due to the insane boost to DoTs)

arcane/fire mages have this synergy as well, with ignite


this also happens for other classes

warriors: debatable due to fury's high white damage, but their yellow damage gains the same boost as an arms warrior's
rogues all get the same out of lethality
hunters same as rogues


only affliction locks and demo locks gain LESS from such a talent, and I think that's enough of a reason to lower the amount of points for it


but that's just my opinion

This topic opens a huge can of worms
Similar to the haste topic... haste increases white damage for rogues which is about 50-60% of their damage? (maybe im wrong but its close)

The other thing to keep in mind is that while affliction only gets about 60% benefit to dps through ruin, our crits also increase our damage by 15%, make the next crit even higher. There were no complaints about how ruin worked until this recent change i dont see why theyd change it now. Affliction is getting plenty of % damage modifiers and now we dont have to sacrifice haunt for ruin. Check back long ago on the lock forums and see just how many threads were made debating if UA was better than ruin...

[Raptorg]

This topic opens a huge can of worms
Similar to the haste topic... haste increases white damage for rogues which is about 50-60% of their damage? (maybe im wrong but its close)

The other thing to keep in mind is that while affliction only gets about 60% benefit to dps through ruin, our crits also increase our damage by 15%, make the next crit even higher. There were no complaints about how ruin worked until this recent change i dont see why theyd change it now. Affliction is getting plenty of % damage modifiers and now we dont have to sacrifice haunt for ruin. Check back long ago on the lock forums and see just how many threads were made debating if UA was better than ruin...

I'm not saying they should change the way it works, they should lower the amount of points needed.
It used to be 1 point, now it's 5

that's a lot for what it's actually worth

that 1 point was a no brainer, it's 1 point and a HUGE damage increase..

now it's 5 points and people think.. is it really worth giving up 5 points so that 1 spell you cast causes 200% damage instead of 150%
and that spell will be 60% or even less then your total damage


i personally don't really think it's worth so many points.. blizzard wants to make it accessible to affliction and demo, but they only made it worse for them

1 point? perfect, but impossible
3 points? good, and very much possible
5 point? i dunno.. i have my doubts..

[MortuariusBC]

I'm not saying they should change the way it works, they should lower the amount of points needed.
It used to be 1 point, now it's 5

that's a lot for what it's actually worth

that 1 point was a no brainer, it's 1 point and a HUGE damage increase..

now it's 5 points and people think.. is it really worth giving up 5 points so that 1 spell you cast causes 200% damage instead of 150%
and that spell will be 60% or even less then your total damage


i personally don't really think it's worth so many points.. blizzard wants to make it accessible to affliction and demo, but they only made it worse for them

1 point? perfect, but impossible
3 points? good, and very much possible
5 point? i dunno.. i have my doubts..

look at it more this way
which increased your damage more as an affliction lock
5% more chance to crit or 100% more damage when you crit?
5 points or not that essentially what it comes down to

[Raptorg]

look at it more this way
which increased your damage more as an affliction lock
5% more chance to crit or 100% more damage when you crit?
5 points or not that essentially what it comes down to

not quite.. before, I created specs with only 2 points in devastation, and i took better talents in affliction

now they're allowing me to get ruin.. and i'm happy about it, but i think the talents i have to give up, to get ruin(and to make me viable) are actually.. better then a 5 point ruin


essentially, the way it looks for me is

2% crit, 2 points which were just fillers

vs

an almost, mandatory talent due to its nature, for 5 points

not to mention, it ends up in the same shit


y'know.. I'm just gonna ditch my range talents, and destruction spell threat reduction.. it's not as if they boost my dps or anything <.<

although i just HATE having 30 yard range spells

bloat is nice and all.. but i don't feel like i'm actually getting a choice, i'd rather have a lot of small costing talents(1/3 points), then few heavy costing ones(5points)..
in the first case, i get a lot of choices, in the second, i'm just spending a useless amount of talent points into heavy costing talents, limiting my choices in other talents which may also have high or just low costs

[MortuariusBC]

not quite.. before, I created specs with only 2 points in devastation, and i took better talents in affliction

now they're allowing me to get ruin.. and i'm happy about it, but i think the talents i have to give up, to get ruin(and to make me viable) are actually.. better then a 5 point ruin


essentially, the way it looks for me is

2% crit, 2 points which were just fillers

vs

an almost, mandatory talent due to its nature, for 5 points

not to mention, it ends up in the same shit


y'know.. I'm just gonna ditch my range talents, and destruction spell threat reduction.. it's not as if they boost my dps or anything <.<

although i just HATE having 30 yard range spells

bloat is nice and all.. but i don't feel like i'm actually getting a choice, i'd rather have a lot of small costing talents(1/3 points), then few heavy costing ones(5points)..
in the first case, i get a lot of choices, in the second, i'm just spending a useless amount of talent points into heavy costing talents, limiting my choices in other talents which may also have high or just low costs

but your comments conflict... you say you arent getting a choice but u also say you only take 2 points in it currently...its all about choices, i certainly hope variations of specs all put out the same dps in different ways

[spec]

Demon form changes are great, and the ruin change is pretty sweet aswell.

with a 40% dmg increase, and more crit dmg as affliction/demo (should you pickup some ruin points) was definitely needed.

throw in shadowflame and warlocks have finally got some nice burst damage, which i for one, love.

Im just hoping it doesnt get a nerf, i can see the dmg going down to 20% or so, and the armor maybe dropping out to 450% (around that), it sounds overpowered as hell, but meh, i think on a 5 min CD and 45sec use, it should be powerful.

Overall, a happy warlock here.

[Raptorg]

but your comments conflict... you say you arent getting a choice but u also say you only take 2 points in it currently...its all about choices, i certainly hope variations of specs all put out the same dps in different ways

no my comments don't conflict..

I don't feel like I'm getting a choice with all those powerful high point costing talents..

I want a lot of small ones, not a few big ones

that's my definition of "choice"

I'd rather want to be able to choose between getting

+3% damage boost on my CoE effect and +10% damage on my CoA

those are 2 choices I can make, depending on my preference, and both are.. roughly as powerful for me personally(though Malediction is probably more powerful in a raid)

but I hate having to choose between, say.. 10% range on all spells, and 10% threat reduction on destruction spells, and ruin

that's not a choice.. that's just forcing you into getting one

[MortuariusBC]

no my comments don't conflict..

I don't feel like I'm getting a choice with all those powerful high point costing talents..

I want a lot of small ones, not a few big ones

that's my definition of "choice"

I'd rather want to be able to choose between getting

+3% damage boost on my CoE effect and +10% damage on my CoA

those are 2 choices I can make, depending on my preference, and both are.. roughly as powerful for me personally(though Malediction is probably more powerful in a raid)

but I hate having to choose between, say.. 10% range on all spells, and 10% threat reduction on destruction spells, and ruin

that's not a choice.. that's just forcing you into getting one

well you can look at it that way
or
with less threat you can dps more
or
with more dps you have to watch your threat more

im having a really hard time figuring out exactly how i want to place points for once
for instance do you take deaths embrace for 15% more crit on the last 20% of a mobs health (great for bosses sux for everything else for the most part) or do you take more direct damage talents in destro which will give u more damage over a fight but not as much burst at the end

dont get me wrong i dont think the trees are nearly perfected yet but bloated trees is intended for wotlk... blizzard posted a couple times already regarding that topic. Im not looking for perfection because perfection typically means cookie cutter imo

[Raptorg]

the problems lies in that the bloat isn't giving a choice..

I mean, I personally think death's embrace is probably the world's worst talent affliction could get.. tbh it's a no brainer NOT to spec in it imo

imp HoT, another thing i'd probably never spec into for PvE

Fel concentration is another one


I don't feel like I'm getting choices here :/

plus I feel forced to take talents I don't want in lower tiers, to reach the higher tiers..
and the ruin change makes that even worse, cause because of it, I have to leave talents I'd like high in affliction, because I lost a LOT of talents just because i had to take talents I didn't want in the lower tiers..

Soul Siphon, Imp CoA, Amp Curse, 1/5 imp Corr

there I lost a grand total of 6 points on talents I'm probably never going to get a serious benefit from.. 6 Points i could have used to get something USEFUL

but I'm forced to get them, because otherwise, i can't reach the top tiers..

[Klokie]

well, theres are some questions we havnt been told yet, Will Emp.corruption be in tree next time, How many point does Shadow's embrace really got, as the talent trees at wowhead/this site is bugged and showing 2/4/3/0/0 increase, stacks two times.
are they tuning anything else? well, I dont know, i assume you dont either :P (unless there have been posted somthing about it)

well if emp Corr is in the tree, Shademb is a 2 pointer. i would go with http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=IfxbbzrGoiAocstZi0hVM

if Emp. corr is not in, shadEmb is a 2 or 5 pointer, http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=IfxdbzrVoiAoMstZi0hVM makes sence to me.

But in the end, imo, it all comes down to if Death's Embrace is better then ISB, as ISB now only boosts your own Direct shadow damage.

[MortuariusBC]

the problems lies in that the bloat isn't giving a choice..

I mean, I personally think death's embrace is probably the world's worst talent affliction could get.. tbh it's a no brainer NOT to spec in it imo

imp HoT, another thing i'd probably never spec into for PvE

Fel concentration is another one


I don't feel like I'm getting choices here :/

plus I feel forced to take talents I don't want in lower tiers, to reach the higher tiers..
and the ruin change makes that even worse, cause because of it, I have to leave talents I'd like high in affliction, because I lost a LOT of talents just because i had to take talents I didn't want in the lower tiers..

Soul Siphon, Imp CoA, Amp Curse, 1/5 imp Corr

there I lost a grand total of 6 points on talents I'm probably never going to get a serious benefit from.. 6 Points i could have used to get something USEFUL

but I'm forced to get them, because otherwise, i can't reach the top tiers..

What im hoping is that blizzard designs instances and encounters so that some specs work better for certain pulls and other specs work better for other encounters. Basically i want something that will throw elitistjerks into a loop so they cant immediatly say X spec is the best dps spec. I want it to be X Spec is great for the boss , but for trash Y spec is superior, but for multiple boss encounters Z spec tops dps.

I want variety and choices and i feel blizzard is attempting to apply that

As to the other poster above

Shadow embrace is 5/5

[ascote]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000

Perhaps this could work as a guide on what cookie cutter affliction dps spec will be. Switch improved corruption with the new version and devastation with ruin. Now notice some bold options such as not having grim reach, fel concentration, destructive reach and intensity. Its a bloated tree, this spec will be awesome on some fights and piss poor on fights where you need max range or get lots of spell pushback.

Bloat is nice, bloat means people who want to give an opinion on your spec must know your class, instead of reading the cookie cutter guide on elitist jerks.

[Varithorn1]

Even bloated specs have cookie cutters, as there is usually only 1 that is the best. Anyway I like your spec, but I would grab imp lifetap over soul siphon. And possibly destructive reach over cataclysm when hit cap is reached, since the cap needs to be achieved for soulshatter purposes.

[darkenrahl]

the problems lies in that the bloat isn't giving a choice..

I mean, I personally think death's embrace is probably the world's worst talent affliction could get.. tbh it's a no brainer NOT to spec in it imo

that could well be BEFORE..
with ruin being reachable with haunt, HECK, death's embrace turns you into a shit-oh-maniac sbolt-crit-machine :P

[Raptorg]

that could well be BEFORE..
with ruin being reachable with haunt, HECK, death's embrace turns you into a shit-oh-maniac sbolt-crit-machine :P

it still sucks

[ascote]

I say screw soulshatter, get me a hands of salvation or something if I'm going to far ahead. Unless my gear pieces actually force me above the cap those hit talents are very useful. That build also considers that my felhunter will generate all the mana I need.

Anyway, that build is a piece of crap on reliquary (spellpushback) and that other guy in MH that needs casters at max range.