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  1. #61

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumidar
    My problems are with Un-Crittability only. it is possible on hard hitting bosses, such as Supremus' hateful strikes, that you can get Crit and instantly die.
    If you can be crit you shouldn't be in BT. Or any other raid for that matter. The loss of the defense on the anticipation talent will hurt a lot of pre t6 geared warriors and pallies, but there is plenty of other options to make up for the loss in defense. Reenchanting, regemming, using older def gear that may be banked, using a tanking sword, buying badge gear with higher def. The loss of some stamina will hurt, but not drastically.

  2. #62

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumidar
    how can you have 490 defense in kara/badge/ZA gear. Are you using Def trinkets, or Stam trinkets? (and i mean on PTR of course)
    You do realize that if you get enough blocking+parry+dodge+(their normal miss chance) you will push CRITS out of the hit table (just as you are used to push CRUSH out of the hit table in tBC).

    Paladins are the only tank that can push crits out of the table like this in a controled manner, since we can have blocking up 24/7...


    edit: Yes, without getting 490 defense (or any defense at all really).

  3. #63

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    I actually made an account just so i could ask some of our beta and ptr pallies for some numbers, because as i see it right now, with out SHoR, pallies on the ptr and soon to be live, when 3.0.2 comes, will still need to have consecration in our single target tanking rotation.

    I play live and on the PTR, this has nothing to do with beta since i dont have a beta account.

    I raid in T6 level gear, and NO, being critable is not even a remote concern at that gear level.

    Until pallies reach 75 our threat will still require consecration in the rotation. One big misconception is that a warrior tanking weapon will somehow increase our damage through the str/ap changes, tanking weapons do not have str or ap on them, the only buff they bring is the raw dps increase for HotR, i tank with Hammer of judgement out of MH and my warrior weap is the Unbreakable Will, and i've done some serious play testing of my own. What I've found is that while yes, the UW does do more damage with HotR, about 200 more a swing, i lose damage on holy shield, SoV, consecration, and any of the judgements, take into account that you can now 5 stack SoV on 3 mobs in multi mob situations, the increase of 600 damage from HotR on a 3+ mob situation is immediately overshadowed by the loss of far more than 600 damage from your combined other abilities. I know what blizz is doing, i fully understand the str/ap to damage they are trying to focus on, but even with a good tanking weapon, you do less damage with a warrior weapon than a spell damage weapon, period. It has no str or ap, and its stam is comparible to a spell damage weapon. It brings absolutely no increase to anything other than HotR and not as much damage as a SP weapon will bring to your combined arsenal. However, i believe a solid melee dps weapon with good str/ap stats would be the best choice atm. These are just my findings, and maybe they are skewed in some way, but i do in actual numbers less damage with a tanking weapon than a SP weapon, factor in reckoning and all the seal procs and im sure its even more unbalanced. Once you take consecration out and factor in ShoR, which has no coefficient other than BV that i know of(im not on beta, so im not sure), the loss in SP will probably bring the numbers more level, maybe even in the favor of the warrior weap, but idk where you pallies are getting your warrior weapons are better numbers and stats, but please share them with me. Again, im refering to the PTR, since i do MT in BT and SW, and im trying to be prepared for the patch.

    Oh, and about our nerf to stam, the problems lies in our base amount of health, and while we'll be on par with the other tanks im assuming at lvl 80, right now we are like 2500 behind similar geared warriors and ferals.

  4. #64

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Sorry but I have to disagree with the origional poster here.

    My armour profile on live: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...raenor&n=Vasir

    The only gear changes I have made are to swap Band of Al'ar for Ring of the Recalcitrant and Hammer of Judgement (with +40 spell damage) for Heartless (with +20 strength).

    AOE Grinding

    Using instant Avengers Shield combined with Hammer of the Righteous I can clear the blood elf demon slayers in a single pull using Seal of Light and Judgement of Light to survive, combined with the new Reckoning and Blessing of Sancturary I never go below 80% mana or 70% health. On live it takes me 2 pulls and I usually have to drink and eat after.

    Tanking

    Heroics are alot easier than they are on live. I've lost some mitigation and defense but since bosses can't crush anymore that doesn't matter and I'm even able to swap out my Darkmoon Card: Vengeance with Bloodlust Brooch for some extra aggro.

    PvP

    On live I'm on par with Rogues (keep in mind that I have 0 resiliance) but on the PTR they don't stand a chance, I can kill almost any melee 1vs1. Casters got a little easier but I still have a herd time against them.


    I think right now Paladins are a little overpowered and that we'll scale differently at level 80 (or maybe other classes will scale better) I have over 300 spell damage from talents, not a major boost but considering all my equipment has attack power (strength).

  5. #65

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    I was concerned about my TPS with all the changes but my worries turn out to be unfounded. I currently tank BT and my guild is trying to get to Illidan before WotLK is released. I went to the PTR earlier and basically put my threat through a stress test and I just have to say that having 2 ret paladins and a fire mage, I was still at least 50% over their threat at all times. Once you get a good rotation going you will never lose aggro. The group did Heroic Shattered Halls and I never went oom and we just chain pulled until the mage had to drink.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...air&n=Bubbleme
    The only gear I changed for that run was my weapon which I replaced with my old Sun-Eater.

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...15251533312301
    This is the talent build I used for that run

  6. #66

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasir
    Sorry but I have to disagree with the origional poster here.

    My armour profile on live: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...raenor&n=Vasir

    Also notice you are Enchanted and Gemed wih +Def and also have a +Def trinket...
    of course you're not worried...

    some of us don't have much CHOICE in swapping gear and will have to lose many stam gems to make the 490 mark. I might even have to replace my Commendation of Kael'thas for a Green quality trinket that has Def that i got in Netherstorm on a quest....

  7. #67

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumidar
    how can you have 490 defense in kara/badge/ZA gear. Are you using Def trinkets, or Stam trinkets? (and i mean on PTR of course)
    one def trinket, Dabiri's Enigma, wich is about 12defense even getting me to 498, so I could replace it with another sta trinket (wich I have by now on life) and only be 4pts bellow 490 wich also can easily be fixed.

  8. #68

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumidar

    Also notice you are Enchanted and Gemed wih +Def and also have a +Def trinket...
    of course you're not worried...

    some of us don't have much CHOICE in swapping gear and will have to lose many stam gems to make the 490 mark. I might even have to replace my Commendation of Kael'thas for a Green quality trinket that has Def that i got in Netherstorm on a quest....
    False. If you can't swap out gear you're a terrible tank. And as others say, if you can push crushes off currently you can remove crits -- nothing has changed. Swap out one trinket and drink a cheap ass Flask of Fort.

    Any other bitching lies in your inability to properly assess the situation from a REAL tanking standpoint. If you're going to have massive problems being crit immune in 3.0.2 you've already got gear problems as it is and 3.0.2 isn't going to make much of a difference.

  9. #69

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumidar
    ...some of us don't have much CHOICE in swapping gear and will have to lose many stam gems to make the 490 mark.
    OK, lets try again.

    There are TWO ways to become CRIT immune.

    1) Stack 490 defense (and/or resiliance) to lower chance to be crit
    2) Push critical hits out of the hit table.
    You do that with "mob chance to miss you" + "your chance to parry vs the mob" + "your chance to dodge vs the mob" + "your chance to block vs the mob" => 100%

    That way ALL attacks against you will be miss, dodge, parry or block. No normal hits. No critical hits.

    This is how we in tBC push out crushing blows - but it also work for critical blows...!


    Warriors can no longer keep enough miss+dodge+parry+block up at all times because of cooldowns made to shield block. DKs cant reach it because they do not have block. So they too, same as warriors, HAVE to go with 1) "stack defense and/or resiliance". Druids simply lack block and can not achieve it either - but they got talents that reduce chance to be crit by 6% so they are already immune.

    Paladins CAN keep holy shield up 24/7. They also get redoubt at a random proc.

    IF we get enough miss+dodge+parry+block+holy shield block we will be crit immune. With or w/out ANY defense rating at all....

    The KEY Question is. Will we be able to reach this point with end game equipment at level 80?

    IF SO - then we can gem for stamina and/or strength. Or even straight up avoidance like DODGE - instead of the rather "weak and expansive" defense rating stat. And thus catch up and close the gap to warriors when it comes to end game boss tanking viability.


    Regards
    Monolithos

  10. #70

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    The only valid point paladins still suffer is base health being about 1k lower at 70... has this yet been repaired at 80? Equalization should include this MOJOR crack in our class. Gear will change i know I actually like things on the ptr as they are except i saw a warior whose gear had the same exact stam numbers in total as mine except he didnt have to have stam trinkets and still had 1.2k more health so thats the only un-nerving part for me atm is our base health disadvantge.


    If you didnt have time to do it right the first time, where are you going to find time to do it a second?

  11. #71
    Stood in the Fire lumenos's Avatar
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    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumidar
    I was not refereing to Threat generation as it is now Out the roof and have no problems with it. My problems are with Un-Crittability only. it is possible on hard hitting bosses, such as Supremus' hateful strikes, that you can get Crit and instantly die. And it's also true that healing was also buffed so a smaller crit might go by un-noticed, but it is still there.
    I believe there was a bug on the ptr's with defense and crittability. I recently MT'd a BT on the ptr and was crit occasionally with 503 defense in t6/sunwell gear. My dodge rating on the character sheet also changed from 33% all the way down to 19% when i zoned into BT. This was right before the last patch/fix and i havn't done any tanking since, so maybe they fixed it.

  12. #72
    Stood in the Fire lumenos's Avatar
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    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic
    I actually made an account just so i could ask some of our beta and ptr pallies for some numbers, because as i see it right now, with out SHoR, pallies on the ptr and soon to be live, when 3.0.2 comes, will still need to have consecration in our single target tanking rotation.

    I play live and on the PTR, this has nothing to do with beta since i dont have a beta account.

    I raid in T6 level gear, and NO, being critable is not even a remote concern at that gear level.

    Until pallies reach 75 our threat will still require consecration in the rotation. One big misconception is that a warrior tanking weapon will somehow increase our damage through the str/ap changes, tanking weapons do not have str or ap on them, the only buff they bring is the raw dps increase for HotR, i tank with Hammer of judgement out of MH and my warrior weap is the Unbreakable Will, and i've done some serious play testing of my own. What I've found is that while yes, the UW does do more damage with HotR, about 200 more a swing, i lose damage on holy shield, SoV, consecration, and any of the judgements, take into account that you can now 5 stack SoV on 3 mobs in multi mob situations, the increase of 600 damage from HotR on a 3+ mob situation is immediately overshadowed by the loss of far more than 600 damage from your combined other abilities. I know what blizz is doing, i fully understand the str/ap to damage they are trying to focus on, but even with a good tanking weapon, you do less damage with a warrior weapon than a spell damage weapon, period. It has no str or ap, and its stam is comparible to a spell damage weapon. It brings absolutely no increase to anything other than HotR and not as much damage as a SP weapon will bring to your combined arsenal. However, i believe a solid melee dps weapon with good str/ap stats would be the best choice atm. These are just my findings, and maybe they are skewed in some way, but i do in actual numbers less damage with a tanking weapon than a SP weapon, factor in reckoning and all the seal procs and im sure its even more unbalanced. Once you take consecration out and factor in ShoR, which has no coefficient other than BV that i know of(im not on beta, so im not sure), the loss in SP will probably bring the numbers more level, maybe even in the favor of the warrior weap, but idk where you pallies are getting your warrior weapons are better numbers and stats, but please share them with me. Again, im refering to the PTR, since i do MT in BT and SW, and im trying to be prepared for the patch.

    Oh, and about our nerf to stam, the problems lies in our base amount of health, and while we'll be on par with the other tanks im assuming at lvl 80, right now we are like 2500 behind similar geared warriors and ferals.
    I've done some BT tanking on the ptr and i have yet to need to work concecration into a rotation to maintain aggro. This is against some pretty significant dps as well. Last one i ran we killed najentus in 2:13 and killed supremus before the second kite phase was over. Our threat generation is pretty incredible now, even without concecration.

    EDIT: The only time i worked concecration into my rotation was aoe tanking and if i was sitting there with everything on cd.

  13. #73

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    well thakns for clarifying that being Un-crushable now mean un-crittable in WotLK... then i do have nothing to worry about.

  14. #74

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by lumenos
    I've done some BT tanking on the ptr and i have yet to need to work concecration into a rotation to maintain aggro. This is against some pretty significant dps as well. Last one i ran we killed najentus in 2:13 and killed supremus before the second kite phase was over. Our threat generation is pretty incredible now, even without concecration.

    EDIT: The only time i worked concecration into my rotation was aoe tanking and if i was sitting there with everything on cd.
    Now, the idea that we can hold agro with out consecration is nice, since its by far the most mana taxing ability we use for tanking, but my concern is not so much wether we can maintain threat, but just in my own little bubble of testing, i was putting out more damage and threat with my spell damage weapon still. Subtract consecration from that and 4/5 of my tanking spells still get more benefit from the spell damage weapon, while only HotR benefits from the tanking weapon.

    Seal of Vengeance/Corruption, any judgement spell, avenger's shield, hammer of wrath (on mobs below 35%), Holy Shield - All get better bonuses from a spell damage weapon, and HotR still stands alone with the tanking weapon. Now if pallies hold threat regardless of which weapon they use, where do warriors, ferals, DK's fall in compared to our TPS? And the issue of us having lower stam by a significant amount, shouldnt we by blizz's logic take less damage than other tanks so we cant be killed easier than them? If we're holding solid threat, than you use a warrior weapon for the better mitigation, plain and simple. But the nerf to stam right now just seems spiteful, we had a hard enough time keeping pace with warriors in equivalent level gear due to our class' lower base health, and warriors using tanking guns with 30-40 stam on them didnt help our cause. Oh, and if you think a libram is an equivalent level replacement to a tanking gun, you have never looked at our libram selection, since they're all utterly useless after you reach uncrushable.

  15. #75

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumidar
    well thakns for clarifying that being Un-crushable now mean un-crittable in WotLK... then i do have nothing to worry about.
    What he failed to mention is that you are only uncritable so long as you are not stunned, have holy shield up (so good luck being uncritable in AoE), and the mob doesnt hit you from behind. You are only uncrittable if you manage to mitigate every single attack.

  16. #76

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic
    What he failed to mention is that you are only uncritable so long as you are not stunned, have holy shield up (so good luck being uncritable in AoE), and the mob doesnt hit you from behind. You are only uncrittable if you manage to mitigate every single attack.
    now you're talking like if i didn't know what un-crushable was in TBC...

  17. #77

    Re: Prot not so great on PTR

    Get a proper weapon, meta gem and cloak enchant......

    Sad people can make it to gear levels that the OP has and still dont have a clue.

    I tanked a Pug ZA on PTR using an unenchanted Kings defender, S2 Lamer shoulders with Def gems(because until 3 hours after I copied my paladin every boss that drops tanking shoulders hated me) and two stam trinkets I am still uncritable. Add in the S2 Shield and I am way over.

    I had 2k less hp then the feral druid (which was in much better gear than me) and that was the only real issue I had. I had no problems with threat using SoV, HotR, Cons and Judgement(wisdom). In fact on one pull I tabbed over to the druids target and noticed I was 2nd on threat for a mob I had never tried to get agro on. I had such a huge threat lead on every fight it was stupid. I also tossed in some AS and HoWs whenever I could, Instant cast ftw.

    We made it to Dragonhawk boss before I figured out I had the wrong libram on(crit libram from Heroic BF).

    At the end of the run I was at 830dps avg for the run, I had to drink 3 times, 2 of them because of buffing. I nearly matched the feral druid for total dmg done, like 20dps lower.

    For another test my wife(resto druid) and I went to heroic SPs, with just me doing dmg we took down the first two groups of 3 bogstokks(meh crabpeople) in just over 1min 30secs. Ending both fights with full hp and mana for both of us.

    As for pvp, I destroyed a prot war like I always do. I lost a duel to a rogue but I dont use HoJ or bubble vs him and at the time poisons where still doing way to much dmg, not sure they may still be doing to much dmg. I also dueled and smashed a demon lock, AoE stun + Fear = loldemonform.

    And we still are top aoe tanks, Wars can beat us in mitigation for that now but mitigation is never an issue for aoe, threat is. They gained a frontal cone attack that does great dmg and stuns and a passive reflective dmg but as anyone who as ever had to aoe tank knows, the mobs will not all stand directly in front of you for a cone attack. TC is also a lot better but it hits limited targets. Also all of the war stuff can miss or is random(BV reflect dmg talent). Our dmg is much more consistent for aoe (Cons can only be resisted on the first tick).

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