why??

[Teebagz]

You play a paladin not a retardin, learn all your fucking specs and play the one thats the most useful to your guild in a raid environment.

If it's prot, go prot if it's holy go holy and if it's ret go ret.

If all you want to do in this game is DPS well then damn you should have rolled a DPS class.

[Desc12Whisp]

Yeesh. ANother one of these.. :-\

Most of these posts (for all classes) are simply garbage speculation on things that you haven't even experienced. I remember reading on warrior forums "OMG NO TG GOT 15% nerf zomg life is now over". Tested it myself, wasn't too bad, not the greatest, but still not as bad as everyone made it out to seem...

This is how I am viewing many of these "wow that nerf just broke my class" posts.

BTW Pyrostemplar is 100% correct. I don't know how you idiots think otherwise.

1. YES, IF you can heal (not saying you will) this WILL lower your dps in a raid as a full dps spec. Just because you can do it does make a difference. Think of it this way: why would ->ANY<- player EVER roll pure dps class if they can just roll, lets say a pally, and be able to tank / heal at gold cost and change gear whereas if they rolled rogue, only be able to do one of those.
2. Seems like all hybrids who complain (not just palas) expect to be doing same damage as pure dps counterparts. Never gonna happen. Any time that a hybrid class does more dps than a pure dps class it is a bug and it will be nerfed, so yes expect them.
3. Yes, i have firsthand experience. My main is a shaman. He is not top on the damage as enhance. If he is then usually the other players suck completely.
4. You are all idiots if you say your utility is garbage to a stupid meter. So you'd rather be wiped on that huge raid boss that you want loot from and #1, but hate to be #5-6 and have it dead because your buffs helped down it. Right.

You're just plain stupid if you think that you'll be equivalent to a dps class. No other way to say it.

[yomyom]

1. YES, IF you can heal (not saying you will) this WILL lower your dps in a raid as a full dps spec. Just because you can do it does make a difference. Think of it this way: why would ->ANY<- player EVER roll pure dps class if they can just roll, lets say a pally, and be able to tank / heal at gold cost and change gear whereas if they rolled rogue, only be able to do one of those.
2. Seems like all hybrids who complain (not just palas) expect to be doing same damage as pure dps counterparts. Never gonna happen. Any time that a hybrid class does more dps than a pure dps class it is a bug and it will be nerfed, so yes expect them.
3. Yes, i have firsthand experience. My main is a shaman. He is not top on the damage as enhance. If he is then usually the other players suck completely.
4. You are all idiots if you say your utility is garbage to a stupid meter. So you'd rather be wiped on that huge raid boss that you want loot from and #1, but hate to be #5-6 and have it dead because your buffs helped down it. Right.

You're just plain stupid if you think that you'll be equivalent to a dps class. No other way to say it.

I agree with this, our shamans never come close to my warlock. but by having an ele shaman in the raid my dps goes up just that much more. So meters aside, which often mean shit all, if you add up all that extra damage done and damage reduced (tank wise) bu your totems, and add them to what you have brought to the raid, you will find you did quite well.

Pallys and in this same boat. A pally brings a lot to the raid, it is sometimes even worth it to have 3 pallys in a 10 man just to get all 3 buffs! (might/wis, kings, salv) And if you add what those buffs alone brought to the raid your doing ok.

[Relina]

If all you want to do in this game is DPS well then damn you should have rolled a DPS class.

This.

Sorry but the only roles a Hunter, Lock, Mage, and Rogue can fill are dps, if Rets are outdpsing them then why even have the class in the first place? Blizz is intentionally giving the same types of buffs/debuffs to multiple classes so that a raid leader isn't required to bring a certain spec of a certain class in order to min/max their raid.

AS long as you know your class, Rets will always have a raid spot because of the sheer massive amount of utility they bring to the table. Raiding shouldn't about topping meters, check your damn E-peen at the door and just enjoy the game.

[mightus]

I agree with this, our shamans never come close to my warlock. but by having an ele shaman in the raid my dps goes up just that much more. So meters aside, which often mean shit all, if you add up all that extra damage done and damage reduced (tank wise) bu your totems, and add them to what you have brought to the raid, you will find you did quite well.

Pallys and in this same boat. A pally brings a lot to the raid, it is sometimes even worth it to have 3 pallys in a 10 man just to get all 3 buffs! (might/wis, kings, salv) And if you add what those buffs alone brought to the raid your doing ok.

Battle shout does not stack with might, salv is no longer a blessing, leaving wisdom and kings, yet there are ussually more than just two pallies.
plus like i said earlier, all classes are getting utility. Rogues for exampkle are getting 3% raidwide crit , and a misdirect type skill.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Have you ever tried (pick the how many talent points and gear as you like) healing as a rogue or tanking as a mage?



Role wise:
There are full hybrid classes (pala, druid, DK)
There are partially Hybrid classes (shammies, warriors and priests)
There are Pet based DPS classes (Hunters, Locks)
There are pure solo DPS classes (mage, rogues).

So you should get an idea on DPS scales...

Wow, thanks for ruining your credibility both at the beginning AND at the end of your post so both kinds of readers were sure to get the message.

Death Knights can perform fewer roles than Shamans can, Shamans can perform 3, they belong up in the 'full hybrid' section, and DKs belong in the partial Hybrid section.

Further, what does having a pet have to do with your total DPS? The combined DPS of a Hunter and his Pet, or of a Warlock and his pet should be the measure of his personal output, and should be similar if not equal to that of a Rogue's.

Lastly, you're correct, no amount of gear a rogue can wear will make him a healer, but his three trees all allow him to perform his role well enough to be competitive. Granted, he only has the option to DPS, but in any of the three trees, he will be able to compete for the arena or raid slot.

If hybrids were punished for having 3 different roles in 3 different trees, rogues should be punished for having 3 similar roles in 3 different trees.

The measure of personal DPS is now weighed by current spec, not POSSIBLE spec. We dont look at rogues and say "Your DPS should be lower, because you can reroll Priest and heal ANY time you want, that's not fair!"

The age old argument of "If hybrids are competitive in any of their three trees, then what's the point of having non-hybrids?!" is a 0-value point, as it's neutralized by the opposing argument: "If hybrids cannot be competitive in ANY of their three trees, then what's the point of having hybrids?!"

If a Ret Paladin brings better buffs than a Rogue or Priest, then yes, his DPS should be lower, but the exact value of each buff amounts to a certain amount of DPS, and in the end, all DPS specs, should be equal once buffs and pets are included.

If you rolled Rogue, you were intending to only ever DPS, that's all you ever wanted to do, so you would have rolled Rogue anyway, even knowing Druids/Shamans/Paladins/Warriors/Priests/DKs who can all do other roles, would be able to match you... right?

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Yeesh. ANother one of these.. :-\

Most of these posts (for all classes) are simply garbage speculation on things that you haven't even experienced. I remember reading on warrior forums "OMG NO TG GOT 15% nerf zomg life is now over". Tested it myself, wasn't too bad, not the greatest, but still not as bad as everyone made it out to seem...

This is how I am viewing many of these "wow that nerf just broke my class" posts.

BTW Pyrostemplar is 100% correct. I don't know how you idiots think otherwise.

1. YES, IF you can heal (not saying you will) this WILL lower your dps in a raid as a full dps spec. Just because you can do it does make a difference. Think of it this way: why would ->ANY<- player EVER roll pure dps class if they can just roll, lets say a pally, and be able to tank / heal at gold cost and change gear whereas if they rolled rogue, only be able to do one of those.
2. Seems like all hybrids who complain (not just palas) expect to be doing same damage as pure dps counterparts. Never gonna happen. Any time that a hybrid class does more dps than a pure dps class it is a bug and it will be nerfed, so yes expect them.
3. Yes, i have firsthand experience. My main is a shaman. He is not top on the damage as enhance. If he is then usually the other players suck completely.
4. You are all idiots if you say your utility is garbage to a stupid meter. So you'd rather be wiped on that huge raid boss that you want loot from and #1, but hate to be #5-6 and have it dead because your buffs helped down it. Right.

You're just plain stupid if you think that you'll be equivalent to a dps class. No other way to say it.

A Draenei Warrior who takes Herbalism has 2 heals at his disposal.

Just like a Ret or Prot paladin, he's come to your raid to tank/DPS, but wait! He can heal... granted, he'll probably never use it, because it's just not effective enough. Should said Draenei Warrior Herbalist's DPS be punished for it?

Further, the healing potential of Ret Paladin, even with Art of War, is only similar to that of a Shadow Priest, as it should be, those two classes are incredibly similar right now and should be balanced as such. The Shadow Priest has the option to drop Shadowform and heal much better than any Ret Paladin can hop seals/blessings and heal, yet the Ret Paladin has plate, and could hop on a shield, but he can bubble, oh wait, the Priest can fear. Some mobs are fear immune, but some mobs ignore plate, etc etc.

So if a Ret Paladin can't have full-force DPS, neither can a Shadow Priest, or a Survival Hunter, or any Warlock (Healthstones/Drains are much more effective than Ret's heals.) No Warlock or Hunter should have good DPS, because their pets can tank some, granted, it's not practical, but they CAN do it, so let's cut their DPS.

Rogues CAN do some evasion tanking, and they have some neat reactive abilities centered aroud it, let's cut their DPS down, as well, it's not practical, but WHO CARES, this is World of Warcrammingstupidbiasedopinionsontoforums!!!

You can debate garbage like this all you want, until you have the resources to balance the phenominal amount of data that Blizzard is having to balance, just wait and see what they come up with. The say they want Ret/Shadow/Survival/etc matching up closely to Rogues/Mages closely enough that if you have a Ret Paladin, and you have a Fire Mage, but the Ret Paladin is your girlfriend's little brother, and the Fire Mage is some twat that talks too much trash in Vent, and bitches all day, you'll take the Ret.

That should be the measure of the DPS difference. Guess what, that indicates Ret paladins doing a heck of a lot more than 75% of the Fire Mage's DPS. I hope for your sake you meant 75% BEFORE buffs are accounted for.

[Vamonse]

Yay! I hope this ends the ricdiculousness on PTR now...if not, pretty please nerf more?

[Gravve]

Retribution -- You're a melee dps class, and one of only a handful of classes that can fill the "mana battery" role. With the changes to the way raid buffs work, we are blurring the lines a lot more between "pure" dps classes and hybrids that have the potential to respec if their dps doesn't work out. But we don't penalize classes for having awesome buffs the way we used to. Also remember that one of Ret's big limitations before was just getting in the group with the good melee buffs. That problem is solved. If you're good and know your stuff cold, you should be able to be up there with the rogues and hunters. Maybe not every fight, but not 500 dps below them either.
- Blue Post By Ghostcrawler

We should not be way at the bottom of the dps meters.

Official Ghostcrawler Translation:

"If you don't like being mid-level on the charts, you can just respec to Holy or Prot."