Ret and armor pen

[Melanctha]

dont know if its been said before,
but isnt armor pen easily the weakest stat for a ret?
will it be of any use?

cause a fair few items seem to be stacked with it.

discuss.


also any math to back up statements would be awesome

[Thumos]

dont know if its been said before,
but isnt armor pen easily the weakest stat for a ret?
will it be of any use?

cause a fair few items seem to be stacked with it.

discuss.


also any math to back up statements would be awesome

Yeah DKs will have the same problem. The warrior is only one of 3 plate wearers that uses ArP to it's full extent.

[Melanctha]

to be honest,
it would be quite cool to see armor pen working with our "melee/holy" damage.

no idea how that would be balanced. but it would make it a much more useful stat.

[venom1234]

Well seeing as how that proc adds about 8%-9% damage to a clothy and the mongoose proc adds 5% chance to crit I would think it is pretty worthless but other people will argue differently.

[venom1234]

Forgot to mention that 8-9% damage does not effect judgement, Seals, or DS in wotlk where the 5% effects all of it,

Only about 2-3% damage on a plate wearer, even less if they have a shield 1.5% maybe

[Melanctha]

i wasnt talking about executioner specifically,
just armor pen in general

[Vorpal]

50% of our damage, on live at least, is white. So armour penetration is used to an extend of 50% by retradins.

[venom1234]

i wasnt talking about executioner specifically,
just armor pen in general

ah true i confused myself haha.

i dunno then, do you mean currently or wotlk? in wotlk armor pen reduces armor by a % not a static number so the math may be entirely different.

I think it is personal preference.....i prefer mongoose for pvp so i just leave it on for raiding.

[Melanctha]

oshit,
completely forgot to mention that i was talking about armor pen in wotlk.

ive tested the old system, and amor pen requires alot of stacking , and a lot of stat tradeoff before it starts to outperform other stats. and its only really useful for mashing clothies.

wondered whether it would be a better or worse stat for ret in the expansion.


also i noticed the new system for ArP.
the % based system. ive got no experience of this, and so cant comment, maybe some of the beta testers can?

[PaladinBash]

You do a lot of Holy damage against heavily armoured targets, where your lack of armour penetration is covered for the most part by that. Against clothies, who have very little armour anyway, it isn't so much of an issue as it is to warriors. Death Knights have plenty of magic attacks and work in a similar fashion to Paladins regarding this. Armour penetration is nice, but it's not as valuable (or necessary, even) as it is for a warrior to kill heavily armour targets.

[mcstu]

I think my aims are to
1) Stack hit to cap
2) Stack AP (via str if pos) until... whatever a decent amount is a 80 (lol i know, but @70 it was roughly 2k unbuffed)
3) Stack crit to 30% or so
4) Expertise as much as the above lets me

I think ArP has had its day for rets, TBC easily did 66-75% of our damage as physical but is much lower now. Haste, it will affect auto and seals that proc of autos, so is decent but our spells are instant so there is a drawback. Expertise seems like our biggest dps increase. Maybe not, what do others think??

[venom1234]

Ya I agree, not a big fan of armor pen with the amount of damage judgements do now, plus the addition of DS, and the added SoB hits from seals proccing off everything.  Maybe that new savagery (90 ap i believe) one even because of how everything partially scales on ap.  Doh, there I go thinking of exe again haha.  Anyway I got my point across.  Str/ap is probably a better stat because of what i just mentioned with the scaling on abilities now.

If anyone has numbers or anything I would appreciate an answer to this too :P

[Rambobarbq]

Warrior can use it so its there to stay.

We need tons of hit for fury still there's only a few cause 2 hander wielder dont need a lot, deal with it.

useless QQ

[Max]

On live, armor pen is worth having once you pass a certain value (which is fairly easy to attain), and also assuming there are certain raid debuffs up on your target. Genrally, 40% white, 20ish% Cs, and some more from WF procs....definitely worth it, if you use a tool like maxdps.com you can verify this.

On the PTR the white and CS dmg drop in % of total because of DS, and also WF doesnt proc an extra hit, so the value of armor pen will be diminished. Whether or not it makes the stat totally useless, i think it's too early to say conclusively, but certainly it won't be as worth having as it currently is.

Armor pen is a stat that stacks with itself, after a certain value im sure it will surpass other stats even in 3.0...but its easily possible that that value will be too high to make it worth trying for.

[Darkeningsky]

i dont know if anyone would agree, but i think righteous vengeance should give us armor penetration instead and fold the current effect into fanatism (or get rid of it all together, i dont care). i personally would prefer doing more damage with my weapon so i can fall back on it while fighting pesky mana drainers. priests, locks- i'm looking at you...cheap bastards lol

[Raptorg]

I think they're trying to "balance" it out by making crit more important for DKs and Rets then it is for warriors..

I still have my doubts it'll end up being balanced.. Especially because warriors gain rage from crits, and that's a very powerful mechanic to consider crit with..

[Gaeryth]

Post-3.0 ArP is pretty much fail for retribution, like haste without SoB.

[Mysmere]

haste affects command now

[Offhand]

Armor pen is percentage based in WotLK. Meaing increased effect against other plate wearers in and reduced effect on clothies.

In PvE, no, armor pen doesn't look worthwhile at all compared to AP or Crit.

[Melanctha]

Warrior can use it so its there to stay.

We need tons of hit for fury still there's only a few cause 2 hander wielder dont need a lot, deal with it.

useless QQ

useless trolling,
i was asking for an explanation as to whether Armor pen was a useful stat, and just how effective it is compared to other stats.
not complaining that it wasnt useful for ret.

L2read warrior.