Big list of Disc suggestions/things that need addressing.

[Nuronv]

iebe i would agree it would be more interesting to give you something to do with weakened soul (like the current crit increase) rather than just get rid of it or cut its debuff time

[Chaosgaurdian]

rofl, make disc a holy dmg spec instead of a horribad healing spec.....keep the survivability stuff in it though.....

[Mora]

So, 2ofdiamonds, when faced with someone who doesn't agree with you, you become mean and combative? Wow, please tell me you're not allowed to vote.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. You link a post where someone makes a statement with no data to back it up. Same thing you did. Blizzard has said many times that if rage starvation becomes a true issue, then they will approach it at that point and fix it, because they want bubbles to be used as mitigation.

and 2ofdiamonds, just admit it, you said "remove weakened soul" and now you are backtracking trying to say you didn't mean that. From the start of this thread, when someone voiced an opinion different than yours, you lashed out. And now when you get called out for making a statement that you're now trying to change, you get even more upset. *shrug*

[Mosaes]

I guess we can all agree that removing the buff is impossible due to the nature of the shield buff. Arena would be ruled by discs because it would almost negate the MS debuffs. I think 15sec (13 sec in PvP climate with set bonus) is ok considering that you get a secondary shield with divine ageis and that constantly shielding the same target would not only be boring but defeat the purpose of the shield as a burst-breaker or incoming Dmg-prep.

I would rather see that other of the disc skills like pain-suppression or power infusion get more play time, maybe reducing them to 1 min CD. This would secure the disc priest spot as a true support/healing class, which is was meant to be. Of course this will create problems in arena but I would rather have a 3-5 sec PS every minute instead of 8 sec every 2.something minutes with talent

[2OfDiamonds]

So, 2ofdiamonds, when faced with someone who doesn't agree with you, you become mean and combative? Wow, please tell me you're not allowed to vote.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. You link a post where someone makes a statement with no data to back it up. Same thing you did. Blizzard has said many times that if rage starvation becomes a true issue, then they will approach it at that point and fix it, because they want bubbles to be used as mitigation.

and 2ofdiamonds, just admit it, you said "remove weakened soul" and now you are backtracking trying to say you didn't mean that. From the start of this thread, when someone voiced an opinion different than yours, you lashed out. And now when you get called out for making a statement that you're now trying to change, you get even more upset. *shrug*

1- that had nothing to do with him agreeing/disagreeing, that had something to do with him fixating on something i said and taking it out of context, like you or i can do with pretty much any post on these and any forums, that doesnt make said quote or statement true. yes, this goes for me too, but if i would take something out of context id expect people to jump on that and call me out for the moron i am, and i have (accidentally more often than on purpose..) dont that and thats what happened. people make mistakes and if proven wrong i would not be the last to admit this.

2- i know blizz wants bubbles to be mitigation, and it is, but the rage starvation can still be a problem as people in that thread pointed out, lets say you are a disc priest with 12% crit (aegis) and PW:S-ing like no tomorrow, or alternatively, whenever its appropriate -if the tank were to lose 2% rage buildup from this, that'd mean 2% less threat (correct me if im wrong, please) and conversely 2% less dps capability for the raid.

sure the tank might be kept shining and fancy during the raid, but it will take longer leaving more room for errors, and making that enrage/frenzy timer all the more problematic.

3- no, if that were the case, if i had meant that i would admit defeat, or edit my post. just because people disagree with me, doesnt make me wrong (rage thread link, for example) and yes blizzard have said DS will remain the disc 21 pointer, this does not make that the best course or the feelings of the priests void by that reasoning. they might be stubborn, and the priests might be unhappy. if not for that reason, perhaps another and whining through this, but with reason nonetheless.

tell me honestly, when you read that bit of my post, did you think the same TES did? if so, how would you word it? to include that part of my wording, but without confusing as to me being serious, i reread it and still feel i worded it properly.

[Rushuna]

Right now I'm trying to figure out how all these people are coming up with the conclusion that lower duration on Weakened Soul = Renewed Hope useless >.>.

Let's say that they put (for some weird reason) -1/2/3 seconds offa Weakened Soul into Imp Power Word Shield. Now it lasts 12 seconds, 10 with full PvP. That doesn't mean that Renewed Hope's crit will be any less used, cause then you'll just put up a new shield THREE SECONDS EARLIER! Woo, big difference other than more mitigation >.>.

I don't agree with everything 2ofDiamonds is saying, but I do understand what he's saying about Weakened Soul vs 18 talents in PW:S, and about the rage starvation. I personally went into Kara with a warrior tank and solo healed it on the PTR without much difficulties, and he said he didn't have much issue with me shielding when he got to about 3/4thish HP as long as he had 20-30 rage or so before I pop it on. But we'll see in LK whether the rage gains will be sufficient, but I'm hoping they will be.

Also, @ 2ofDiamonds, in regards to Borrowed Time. If you REALLY want to refresh the buff to get faster casting, you know you can just pop the shield onto someone else (Like an offtank or a caster before an AoE to buffer against spell pushback) and still get the buff every 4 seconds (PW:S' cooldown). So honestly, they have to make it only for the next spell.

Also, the reason it's being consumed by instant casts is because haste affects GCDs of instant cast abilities, so even if you use an instant cast, the GCD is shortened to like 1.15 secs or so with that instant, and if the ability is channeled or casted, the heals come faster.

[Mora]

no, 2ofD (shortened name, i like it, lol) I didn't see the same thing TES saw. I saw it as part of a larger statement. But either way, I really don't care to fight with the people on the forums about this...as it stands, I think there are some slight modifications that could be made to the tree. Reflective shield working on divine aegis...improved shields working for both PWS and aegis. Imp PWS and inner fire on the same tier. Aside from that, I am 100% happy with the tree in it's current form. I don't see any problem with the weakened soul effect, and the only final crazy hope I could have would be take the cooldown off of penance, but that's a different discussion.

[2OfDiamonds]

thats the only thing i can live with, as it is now, a penance, GH, another GH or (glyphed = cheap) FH while keeping up a renew, 3 buttons gives the target a boatload of healing.

penance heals more than my GH, for less than half its mana, over a shorter duration AND in increments, meaning its safer than GH.

8 secs talented, good enough for me, but less = better ofc

[TES]

yes we can, albeit somewhat indirectly.

and to TES, if i were to say 'if i miss the retaking of undercity event, im gonna kill someone!' you would immediately call the cops because i AM gonna kill someone right now?!

putting something out of context is so very.. fox-news like, please tell me you are not allowed to vote?

you failing - 2
you making a point - 0
you being right about me not being friendly when faced with idiocy and ignorance - 1
me being right about rage starvation and pretty much all i said in this thread(i will wait for smart remarks) - 1

that is all.

*Sigh* I feel like feeding a troll today. Please tell me your not a monkey from Mars!!

*See what I did there?*------------------------^

I prove again you are a troll. A troll is an individual who posts in a hostile and/or annoying manner on forums to invoke angry replies for fun or entertainment. You have been "mean and combative" when someone does not agree 100% with your posted ideas, as stated by Mora. You have posted flawed theory and ideas based on talents for a class you obviously have no idea how they heal.

*See what I did there?* ----^

yes, that was sarcastic, and no i dont suffer idiots. i was not trying to be friendly Shocked

Hmm, hostile and combative... check

Divine spirit is fine as a 21 point talent...I'd say instead of three points, make it one point for the same effect, but I can live either way.

Grace I agree should last longer. 15 seconds would work for me.

Borrowed time is excellent, no matter how you cut it. I love it. Power Word Shield should work as the Glyph does, but instead of healing 20% of the damage absorbed, 1 rage, 1% mana should be returned every time it absorbs damage.

Aspiration I don't think should shorten weaken soul...we've got a talent right on the other side to increase crit while weakened soul is up, so again, I'm happy with the weaken soul mechanic.

My requests/suggestions are as follows:

get Imp P.W.S. and Inner fire onto the same tier so I can stop blowing points in Improved Fort. Swapping Inner fire and Silent resolve would easily do this, but they've already swapped PWS and inner fire, which is even worse than before. I can live with one point in imp inner fire, not one point in Imp PWS.

PWS to be taken off the global cooldown. I think that it would be an amazing change that would allow us to bubble and instantly start a heal on a target, which would be a great benefit for those "oh Sh!t" moments.

Other than that, I am happy with the Disc tree. Oh, and put my 5% int back onto elightenment.

In conflict with your ideas.... check

if you slap a PW:S on your tank and you cast that nice greater heal oh so speedily, what if that (highest rank!) crit and you get a nice 3-4k shield on the tank, theres your rage starvation right there cos of divine aegis. its problematic and needs to be dealt with.

yes PW:S spam would be bad, but you dont see paladins getting a spell based around forbearance do you?? 'the spells they get it from would be too powerful to spam (obviously) so lets just make a talent around the crappy debuff they gain!' thats backward logic and i dont like it >

meanwhile what paladins do get, while we/I are on comparing, is Judgements of the Pure.

basically what im trying to strain out like an uncomfortable kidney stone, is that despite the 25% haste being wonderful, 6 seconds is too short unless you are in an ohcrap moment, and with this being the 'minimum damage and single target awesome keeping main tank up without breaking a sweat while lasting longer than your mom with my mana'- tree that ohcrap talent shouldnt feel so crap, it should feel like 'nice, this gives me some room to slap a penance on that offtank when he needs my help(not necessarily within 6 seconds :-X), my smooth awesomeness is keeping the MT up no probs bro and it never hurts to help!'

yes?

I'll bite.

1. No Divine Aegis is not a problem because tanks get more rage from doing damage now. This is not going to be TBC where tanks hit like little girls and are harder to touch than M.C. Hammer.

2. Forbearance was made because paladins could use Divine Shield and Blessing of Protection could be chain cast making the "omg it's a paladin... screw it I don't want to waste 10 mins trying to kill him" meme. It was a nerf to even out the playing field. Weakened Soul was in place from the very beginning because if it was not a priest was invincible until they ran out of mana. The new talent that gives you spell crit on target with Weakened Soul is based on the fact that *gasp* Disc use shield to help with healing.

3. Judgements of the Pure is crap. It's spell haste based on a combat spell. Something we don't cast to heal. This means WE DON'T CAST IT DURING HEALING! *ZOMG no wai!* PW:S will be cast by Disc priests because their healing is based around it. While I admit 5 or 6 seconds isn't a long time to decide on who to cast, it is fair because. Guess what.. IT IS AN "OH SHI!" button type of talent. The Disc tree is a single target healing tree. If you want to heal the raid, spec into Holy.

First off, i cant post on the wow-europe forums (banned) so im posting here, if you think this is nice to suggest on official forums, feel free to post it

Hmm... I wonder why? /sarcasm

Also I don't discriminate, I hate all idiots equally.

I could also mention that the "out of context" bit about Fox News is slanderous, but I think made my point already.

[Ugoli]

I would rather see that other of the disc skills like pain-suppression or power infusion get more play time, maybe reducing them to 1 min CD.

As I said in another post I feel that PS should get a Amplify/Dampen Magic flavour where the threat can either be increased or decreased.

[2OfDiamonds]

1* *Sigh* I feel like feeding a troll today. Please tell me your not a monkey from Mars!!

Hmm, hostile and combative... check

In conflict with your ideas.... check

2* I'll bite.

2. Forbearance was made because paladins could use Divine Shield and Blessing of Protection could be chain cast making the "omg it's a paladin... screw it I don't want to waste 10 mins trying to kill him" meme. It was a nerf to even out the playing field. Weakened Soul was in place from the very beginning because if it was not a priest was invincible until they ran out of mana. The new talent that gives you spell crit on target with Weakened Soul is based on the fact that *gasp* Disc use shield to help with healing.

3* Hmm... I wonder why? /sarcasm

Also I don't discriminate, I hate all idiots equally.

I could also mention that the "out of context" bit about Fox News is slanderous, but I think made my point already.

1* Biker mice from mars would have been so much cooler.. would have even earned my respect and made me drop this, they are just that cool!

mora and me seem to agree now, she did not yield, nor did i, but we understand eachother, at least i think we do. if discussion is being had aggressively, this does not mean it cant lead to something good, just look at japanese parliament, those guys are crazy aggressive!

2* you may bite on that, but the link i posted to the beta thread stands, yes you are right, they generate more threat, they no longer hit like pussies, they are getting an overhaul. BUT despite this, the point i made about 2% less rage/2% less threat/2% less dps is a valid one, one that still stands, though obviously only applicable to druids and warriors. a similar problem is with paladins, shielding is damage prevention, not healing, ergo: shield them, thats less damage they take while they use up their mana, less damage is less healing/more overhealing which is less mana through Spiritual attunement.

now we can discuss about rage starvation all day long, and at the end of the day, im still right, not because i wanna be, but because sadly thats how the mechanic works, so instead of bitching to me about it not being a problem, you could be helpful and try to devise solutions. because yes, a massive GH critical which is followed by a massive penance critical (healing @ lvl 80 for about 13k with a crit GH id reckon) and shielding your warrior tank for 30% of 26.000 -7800- on a soft hitting boss you can bet 9 times out of 10 if you had previously slapped your fully buffed PW:S on him, hes gonna be having problems.

No, this would not happen often, but yes, it would/will happen occasionally, whats gonna be your defense then? 'sorry i thought the mechanic was ok, i guess i will spec out of that for the next time, i will pay the repair..' or 'i didnt think this was possible till he came running for me and 1shot me, sorry guys'

isnt the point of beta and beta forums to eliminate the possibility for that and make a spec worthwhile speccing into?

also, props for knowing about pre-forbearance times, thats oldschool

3* posting of ascii art was the 'violation' that got me banned, minor slaps on the wrist before that, for voicing my opinion, just like here, not everyone agrees with it and not everyone knows how to react or discuss with it.

i stand by the out of context bit, because it was out of context, i said that as a 'what if' or a 'this is no real option but lets throw it in the group and brain storm about how it could be', just because you did not read it like that (at first, or even now still) does not mean i did not mean it like that.

all in all, thanks for discussing, heated debates most often have the best results, and it would be nice if we, after a couple of weeks of bashing eachothers faces in, have an epiphany and something that can be used.

[TES]

1. Sorry but SWAT Kats will always be superior to Biker Mice from Mars. Though I give you credit for taste in old toons.

2. The situation you decribe shouldn't happen unless a DPS is riding the tanks ass on threat. That's his/her fault not mine. Almost every class now has a threat reducer. If I agro as a priest, Fade now ( DEVs confirmed) drops threat to zero for the duration of the spell. If I don't hit fade before I get nailed, thats bad playing not bad game mechanics. Spells and Talents should NOT be used to cover for bad players.

As for soft hitting bosses, that should (keyword) only be a problem if you overgear the instance/raid. Even then the tank should be doing enough damage to keep threat if for a few seconds his rage *hiccups*.

Paladins have more than just Spiritual Attunement to get mana back now. ( As you already know.) Bewteen SA, BoS and JoW, mana should really only be a problem if you are spamming Consecrate every CD along with everything else.

3. In that case, remember to state so. Just saying you got banned makes it look like the only reason you came was to start trouble. That can offend people.

However, I will say a mechanic in PW:S to restore mana, rage and runic power would be nice. However, please think of the PvP situation that might cause. A Disc priest with infinite mana? More likely than you think.

It would be a better idea if Divine Aegis could do it. This would give Disc priests a reason to stack crit. The situation you described would also be even less likely to occur if that was true.

However, No to PW:S and yes to DA. I'm all for skills and talent helping cover for bad luck. I'm against skills covering for bad players. >

I not against arguments or debates. I am against HOSTILE posts. I know that sounds hypocritical in light of my last few posts as most were borderline hostile. It was to prove a point. Remember the golden rule: Treat others as you would have them treat yourself. If your hostile in your posts, other will be hostile back.

I hope this topic can be made useful. However, I doubt it would do any good as this is not the official Wow forums and talents are pretty much set.

[2OfDiamonds]

if something (or a couple) useful were to come from this, someone with access could post it where appropriate, that should be no problem.

on the rage/mana thing, this is true and paladins shouldnt have much of a problem, but to give highest threat and if rotations allow, if consecrate is a good way to max threat, im sure paladins would use it.

it could be a percentile, some addition to a high disc talent, or a glyph, or a standard weaker (not great, but doing the trick kinda thing) giving said percentage, lets say for arguements sake that a warrior loses 15 threat with a shield, and a paladin maybe 150 mana, this could be incorporated, just as the health restoring glyph, to restore a small amount of resources that would otherwise be lost.

this would then only have this functionality for classes or specs that would otherwise have lose something (rogues dont lose energy for example, or pets focus) to benefit those that would have lost. 'restore 15 rage and/or 150 mana when broken' could do this, and could be made to scale with each rank.

something simple, a good reason to use it in combat now that a protective spell does not have potentially detrimental drawbacks. and perhaps a good reason to slap one on a fury warrior once in a while (tho dps should take as little dmg as possible ofcourse, normally) or that mage thats tanking/taking dmg/aoe-ing etc.

i still think transformers, mask, pizza cats and dungeons and dragons are good contenders for best cartoon, but thats just me.

[TES]

Any bonus mana from shield would HAVE to be a percentage. It wouldn't scale even if you got new ranks for more mana.

I'm still against PW:S giving rage/mana/runic power. I think it should be more of an "OH SHI!" button as far as healing goes. PW:S giving mana would make Disc priests in PvP nigh unkillable. Divine Aegis would be better. Something like "Restores 5 rage, 10 runic power or 2% total mana every second while target is protected by Divine Aegis". If the boss/ mob breaks it almost immediately, no problem. Rage and mana would go back to being restored. It isn't broken? Rage and mana shouldn't suffer at all.

I also agree that BoS should give more mana. It gives 10% of warriors total rage and 20% of Death Knights Runic power. That's unfair when the paladin (who give the damn buff) only gets 2% of his mana back. I would agree 3% or 4% is much better. I doubt Blizzard would go for it though. They want Warriors to be the best tanks and Death Knights are the new baby so they have to get an advantage as well. :

While Consecration can max out threat. I don't think it is fair that paladins HAVE to use it to keep threat on a single mob. Consecration should be for when you have 4 or more mobs on you. Warriors don't have to use Thunder clap to keep a boss on them. Why should the paladin have to use his AoE tanking move to keep his agro? Yes yes I know warriors debuff Attack speed with Thunder clap but they can leave that to a fearl druid, frost DK or offtank paladin.

[Deleted]

- look at all the disc 1 pointers, then tell me DS is fine as stat buff, in the disc tree as 21 pointer..
- you love Borrowed time (click it, not same spell, in case you didnt get my point earlier) you say, you mean to say you always cast a spell within 5 seconds of PW:S? like shielding a tank before a pull then regen mana back to full? oh wait..

/facepalm

Yes, DS is fine. It has huge raid utility, worth every point.

And shielding tanks before a pull?? Both tanks and dps must hate you if you do that. It's not needed at all, and it starves your tanks rage right when he needs it the most: at the pull. The Borrowed Time talent is perfect as it is: when a tank takes a big hit (or some debuff) you throw a PW:S on him, follewed by a fast greater heal. That's what this talent is for, that's what the spell is for. Oh, and it's also very sweet stuff for PvP. Love it!

[2OfDiamonds]

was an example, not something you'd use alot, but anyway, in that scenario borrowed time is good yes, though i tested borrowed time just now on ptr, and my penance did not get extra haste..

[TES]

Hmm.. I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic about that last one. I'm not sure. People need to learn use /sarcasm more. Sarcasm is a bit harder to catch in written form.

Edit: Ack, ninja'd!

[Ugoli]

It's not needed at all, and it starves your tanks rage right when he needs it the most: at the pull.

From what I understand the Devs are saying about the new rage mechanic. The rage/mana regen is more loaded toward hit rather than being hit. So ye old rage starving tanks with shields will no longer such a big issue, as long as yer tank is actually hitting the boss. I would say its situational, anyone who says they never shield a tank on pull is not using all the abilities to the best effect. Its not standard practice but it gets used for certain situations. Anyone who isn't shielding the lock Strider tank on Vashj is asking for a soulstone use or a wipe.