Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Repost of my post on the WOTLK forums:

    This is not my idea but it is the smartest idea I have read on the forums so far. I am not in Beta but i dont like the way it is going at the moment. I have healed Sunwell on a paladin.

    Many paladins say that we lack some "kind of" AoE heal and i agree: holy shock on a 6s cooldown and Beacon of Light is not sufficient and might be a wrong approach.

    Well,
    we dont need HoTs, we dont need a straight down AoE heal. It would require nerfing on our single target healing to even up again with the other healing classes.

    But,
    we do need a spell like PoM. A spell that is reactive to damage and does have some AoE ability.

    Option 1:
    You could combine this with Sacred Shield ( jumping to damaged players, preventing the next damage), giving us the ability to land a crit on them. I suppose that a less good version of Sacred Shield should jump over, like only 25% crit increase but with the full strenght damage absorption (6 sec duration). Then we can heal that target up, while having beacon of light and the original Sacred Shield on our main target. (something like 3 jump charges would be nice)

    Option 2:
    We get a spell like PoM but you then need to tune down Beacon of Light to about 70% of our healing done but including the heals PoM do. We then heal less double targets but we gain AoE survivability and improved single target healing on massive damage spikes.

  2. #22

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by Fadibo
    Go Sunwell before you make judments on how good you are at raid lvl. Until then you know absolutly nothing about the future versions of 5man, 10 man or 25 man content. Then you will hopefully get the point that Blizzard is not making content so that our type of healing is wanted.
    If he's raiding end BT he'll have a perfectly good understanding of how his class works, so keep your elitist "lawls i r raiding lolwell" crap to yourself.

    How about you try come up with some constructive comments that actually add to this discussion instead? As I just find these kind of comments incredibly annoying and unhelpful.

  3. #23

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by loopy
    If he's raiding end BT he'll have a perfectly good understanding of how his class works, so keep your elitist "lawls i r raiding lolwell" crap to yourself.

    How about you try come up with some constructive comments that actually add to this discussion instead? As I just find these kind of comments incredibly annoying and unhelpful.
    When I was raiding Karazhan all I heard was how Paladins couldn't heal SSC.
    When I was raiding SSC all I heard was how Paladins couldn't heal TK.
    When I was raiding TK all I heard was how Paladins couldn't heal Mount Hyjal.
    When I was raiding Mount Hyjal all I heard was how Paladins couldn't heal BT.
    When I was raiding BT all I heard was how Paladins couldn't heal Sunwell.
    Now I am raiding Sunwell and, surprise surprise, its going fine so far just like all the other instances did.

    Yeah, a lot of those instances have very heavy AoE damage but thats for the priests and shammies to heal. A Paladin can still put out just as much healing. The only instance where I do feel gimped as a paladin healer is ZA. There is so much savage AoE in there and due to the fewer healers in 10 man a Paladin's inability to keep up really does make it harder. It also doesn't help that Zul'jin gets his consecration, arguably the worst AoE in the instance only if there is a Paladin in the group ...

  4. #24

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by mtdew5309
    We also now have Bacon of light.
    Does that come with toast?

  5. #25

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by Fadibo
    Its actually hard to come up with constructive comments for ppl that think they are playing a special class that actually hase the exact same single target healing skills as all the others 3 classes. And still they think they are viable....
    Really? Let's see...

    I hope you understand also that every other healing class is getting their glyphs to do extra effect on Every single healing spell. At the same time holy palas and their "special" abilites are getting their 3 healing spells changed to ... yes hots and minor aoe that destroy the orginal value of the heals as single target heals.
    A constructive comment! Well done that man!

    Get a clue about what is happening maybe?
    Uneeded, demeaning, epeen stroking comment. Get a more of a clue about constructive posting, like you did with the last bit and leave out this shit.

    If not then I suggest you take a look at the glypths to the single target heals of other classes and lets see how special you be while hotting with your FOL every 15 sec - Unable to use it as a tank heal unless you loose 50% of the actual heal... So... Special..... No hots ? ... not AOE ?... Just lol.
    Zomg another constructive comment!

    Gratz !
    Gratz to you too!

    Now, you didn't really need to give me a break down of all the things that could be improved with the holy pally spec here, as I'm well aware of them, and it wasn't the target of my original post anyway.

    What I do wonder is why you couldn't have come up with this answer in your original post on the first page (minus the epeenage), instead of the self important crap you did post.

    In short, post constructively, cut the epeen stroking bullshit, and we'll all get along much better.

  6. #26

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Yeah, a lot of those instances have very heavy AoE damage but thats for the priests and shammies to heal. A Paladin can still put out just as much healing. The only instance where I do feel gimped as a paladin healer is ZA. There is so much savage AoE in there and due to the fewer healers in 10 man a Paladin's inability to keep up really does make it harder. It also doesn't help that Zul'jin gets his consecration, arguably the worst AoE in the instance only if there is a Paladin in the group ..
    By default your statement is false. No paladin can put out as much healing as an AoE healer. Its simple math.

    As for Healing T4 through T6 instances, what you fail to mention is how your role becomes more and more limited as you progress through content. In T4/T5 instances, paladins could effectively raid heal as well since damage isn't widespread. This gave raid leaders a bit more flexibility in which healing classes were absolutely essential to the raid. The later parts of BT and sunwell, however, limit the role of paladins to nothing more then tank healing as they just lack the tools to do any sort of raid patch up as effectively as other classes.

    Also, you need to consider the fact that downranking is no longer a viable option for paladins. How long do you think you'd last on brut casting rank 11 Holy Light even with a sunwell geared shadowpriest? You can't use divine plea on that fight, because your healing would be gimped. Your best bet would be to have the burn healing paladin beacon the main tank and pray that combined with priest synergy provides enough cover for your mana issues.

    Synergy with other classes: Thats essentially what playing a raiding paladin in WoTLK is going to be about. You no longer have direct control over your mana regen and casting choices, but rather will have to rely on the capabilities of other classes. This is unique in regards to the holy paladin, as we're the only ones that don't have a direct and useful regen mechanic. That is, unless they remove the healing penalty from divine plea or increase illumination back to 100%.

    The issue at hand with our class isn't us being terrible. We're not. The issue is that we're not quite as good as the other healing classes across the board and even our other specs. Why really bother being full holy, when you can be holy ret and single target heal just as effectively? Maybe thats blizzards intent, but then that design means they've short changed paladins since they've gone out of their way to massage and fine tune the upper tiers of every tree of every other class.


  7. #27

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Wanted to put in my 2 cents

    We are at Muru, I haven't cast HL rank 11 in raids for ~6 months.

    I go with HL 9 and it slashes my overheals by roughly 20%. Even then a typical nite I have 40%-60% overhealing.

    I'm also a bit of a rare bird when it comes to Holy paladins, I stack Intellect first, then spell crit. Raid buffed I hit 16983 mana and 45% HL crit. It is extremely rare mana is an issue for me, only time is when the RNG favors no crits for a fight.

    With the removal of downranking, Divine Plea currently imposing a -100% heal tax for 15 seconds. I believe you are going to see Holy paladins stack intellect and spell crit to be able to endure the average boss encounter healing.

    You are also going to see Holy Paladin overhealing SPIKE because;

    1. Our target gets healed before our heal lands, we are tank healers, yet any sane raid runs HoTs on the tank. On hard hitting bosses, that same raid will have shaman bouncing CH for Ancestral Fortitude. Forces overhealing thru no action of ours.

    2. We have high crit rates and no middle ground heal. Tank needs the equivalent of a normal HL 13, said heal crits, bang 40%+ overhealed.

    3. We have no middle ground heal.

    4. We are still forced to cast a HL every 15 to keep up Lights Grace effect.

    This is why I felt the HoT component of Sheath of Light was perfect for a Holy Paladin;

    1. It placed a HoT on our single target, meaning a druid or priest can HoT someone else and allow our ticks to fullfill that roll, thus reducing our overheals.

    2. Gave us better control over our single target. Oh, I just crit HL and put a HoT on him ticking for 2k, can back off now and use FoL for about 5 heals. Again help reduce overheals.

    3. Synergized amazingly with what we are designed to do, crit healing.

    There is a FoL Gylph that throws a HoT, but I don't think any serious raiding Holy Paladin will use it because they will need the full power of FoL since we have no middle ground heal. I really wish there was a way to turn a glyph off or on, then I could control the effect and use what best suited the raid at that moment.

    In short, they will have to address this issue, unfortunately we probably won't see anything from Blizzard until we are consistenty being kicked to the curb by raids because a priest or druid can do our job just as well and any other healing that is required.

    I can already see that most raids will have at least on buff biatch for Kings, once they are used to that, whats the big deal to have me sit at line and only come in to buff?

    Get the ice, cause your nads are going to be sore come WotLK as a Holy Paladin.

    Silver


  8. #28

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    They have been sore for some time.... and I see no relief in sight. Ugh.

  9. #29

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    What about just giving us a talent that gives a person taking more than 50% overhealing from Holy Light get 50% of the total amount (that would have been) healed as extra health? Like a free Last Stand... ;D

  10. #30

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann
    Wanted to put in my 2 cents

    We are at Muru, I haven't cast HL rank 11 in raids for ~6 months.

    I go with HL 9 and it slashes my overheals by roughly 20%. Even then a typical nite I have 40%-60% overhealing.

    I'm also a bit of a rare bird when it comes to Holy paladins, I stack Intellect first, then spell crit. Raid buffed I hit 16983 mana and 45% HL crit. It is extremely rare mana is an issue for me, only time is when the RNG favors no crits for a fight.

    With the removal of downranking, Divine Plea currently imposing a -100% heal tax for 15 seconds. I believe you are going to see Holy paladins stack intellect and spell crit to be able to endure the average boss encounter healing.

    You are also going to see Holy Paladin overhealing SPIKE because;

    1. Our target gets healed before our heal lands, we are tank healers, yet any sane raid runs HoTs on the tank. On hard hitting bosses, that same raid will have shaman bouncing CH for Ancestral Fortitude. Forces overhealing thru no action of ours.

    2. We have high crit rates and no middle ground heal. Tank needs the equivalent of a normal HL 13, said heal crits, bang 40%+ overhealed.

    3. We have no middle ground heal.

    4. We are still forced to cast a HL every 15 to keep up Lights Grace effect.

    This is why I felt the HoT component of Sheath of Light was perfect for a Holy Paladin;

    1. It placed a HoT on our single target, meaning a druid or priest can HoT someone else and allow our ticks to fullfill that roll, thus reducing our overheals.

    2. Gave us better control over our single target. Oh, I just crit HL and put a HoT on him ticking for 2k, can back off now and use FoL for about 5 heals. Again help reduce overheals.

    3. Synergized amazingly with what we are designed to do, crit healing.

    There is a FoL Gylph that throws a HoT, but I don't think any serious raiding Holy Paladin will use it because they will need the full power of FoL since we have no middle ground heal. I really wish there was a way to turn a glyph off or on, then I could control the effect and use what best suited the raid at that moment.

    In short, they will have to address this issue, unfortunately we probably won't see anything from Blizzard until we are consistenty being kicked to the curb by raids because a priest or druid can do our job just as well and any other healing that is required.

    I can already see that most raids will have at least on buff biatch for Kings, once they are used to that, whats the big deal to have me sit at line and only come in to buff?

    Get the ice, cause your nads are going to be sore come WotLK as a Holy Paladin.

    Silver

    I pretty much agree entirely with what you're saying.

    My stock in trade at the moment is also HL 9. Obviously I have rank 11 there also for when the big heals are really needed, but the only other downrank I use is HL5 purely for keeping Light's Grace up inbetween FoL spamming. With the changes incoming the only option I see right now is to substitute Holy Shock for HL 5 in my normal rotation and pray for crits proccing Infusion of light if/when Diviine Favor is on CD (right now I'm planning on using two seperate Holy Shock macros, one with DF for emergency heals - proc IoL - insta HL, one without for general rotation spam).

    Loss of definitive control over whether Light's Grace is up or not (bar wasting a max rank HL every 15 seconds of course) is one of my biggest gripes with the whole way that pally healing has been changed to be honest. It's one of the best talents in the holy tree for the raiding pally, and for me this change seems to go totally against the grain of what it was designed to help us be; fast, efficient, controlled single-target healers, and like you I can only see me changing my stat stacking habits to favor Int/crit over anything else (read: mp5), just in order to somehow maximise these new random talent procs as much as possible.

    Now, unless they can come up with some sort of middle ground heal, or some other solution to this issue, what other choice do we have?

    I've heard quite a few ideas from the pally community in general (on here and other forums) on ways to possibly increase our utility without being overly OP and putting other classes backs out. One of the ideas I heard recently (maybe on this forum) was about changing Judgements of the Pure (with JoL up) to give some sort of small range/size aoe heal around the judged target, instead of the fairly useless spell haste buff it gives now (the GCD pretty much nullifies it to be honest), it would fit in well with the pally style of healing in my opinion (not too dissimilar to the original BoL design in effect, although not as powerful), and would actually give us a really good reason to try and fit judgements into our standard healing rotations, which is something that Blizz seems to want to encourage us to do anyway with the change to Crusader Strike in the ret tree.

    Although it would be nice to think that Blizz would give us some sort of small raid healing utility like this, I really don't see it happening, and with them now moving Sheathe of Light out of reach for the average holy pally, it doesn't appear to be in their designs for the class/spec either unfortunately.

    Also as a footnote, the change to Diviine Plea is fairly disappointing too from a PvE point of view (although I can see it's advantages in PvP). It was fine as it was before for PvE in my opinion, but the healing nerf that comes with it in it's current state doesn't make it very appealing. Can we really afford to ask another healer (probably a vital raid healer) to "cover me please while I regen mana, cos I'm gonna be healing nerfed, sorry "?

  11. #31

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulver
    no more rank 1 consecration to flush out rogues
    Crap, I didn't even think about that being affected. Uuuuuuugh.

    I think we should beg Blizzard like the shamans did with Rank 1 Earthshock. Maybe they can change the scaling on Rank 1 Consecration to give us what little anti-chain-cc that afforded us. I disliked healing arenas because a lot of the time it was my duty to just absorb all the CC the enemy could throw at us.

  12. #32

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by Fadibo
    Now... this was just mean... He was so happy !!
    lol ;D lol ;D


    Crap I just speced Holy from last build and havnt tried it out yet.
    and I am now hearing that it suck.
    Paladins are Cool Now?
    What happen to Kalgan?

  13. #33
    yiptastic
    Guest

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    actually, I believe it's not true that we don't have middle ground heals. But it's true we don't have a good mid-ground healing spell that we can spam.

    We actually got one now, and it's holy shock. It's not a spell for us to spam. But it's a spell with high crit rate (as high as holy light), instant, and allows an instant holy light heal on crit.

    It's also false to say we don't have HoT, since FoL glyph provides just that amount. (and FoL spam is the same as HoT...)

    In WoTLK, we will have a combination of healing spells, instead of just straight off spamming.

    sacred shield is gonna scale with spell power, as to how much, we'll have to wait for blizz to announce.

    For MT/OT healing, we have:

    BoL + any of the combo.
    1) glyphed FoL + sacred shield + holy shock
    2) holy shock + holy light
    3) FoL + sacred shield + holy shock + instant holy light

    you can always cast sacred shield, do cast 2 FoL, holy shock and repeat.
    if the target hits a spike, you might have the instant holy light to instantly pull his HP back up.

    really, it's about how you manage it. if your tank is the only target taking dmg, then there's no point bring too much healers to begin with. If you react fast, you can always keep someone up before another healer can.

    holy shock is instant and can trigger instant holy light. I think those who say they constantly overheal with holy light by a large margin aren't good healers at all, cos they can't pace their heals and the fight.

    make sure you have holy shock, sacred shield + FoL in your rotation? (depends on the situation of course, if you group is taking massive dmg, you holy light, and if you overheal in that case, you are basically telling the raid that you are a redundant healer)


  14. #34

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by mtdew5309
    You are right about cleanse. By the way my toons name is dietdew lvl 70 dwarf pally on azgalor with over 2100 plus healing. I was at work and in a hurry when i was typing this up.

    Also i have healed MGT as a holy pally which does suck to do, but i have done it. Heroic on the other hand i dont do at all. I do understand AoE heals or HoT are needed to do it.

    I agree with Lepa if you want number one roll something else. I myself dont care if i am number one healer as long as i do my job which i have been doing. I still think if you give pallys a HoT or a AoE heal that competes with other clases they will then say holy pallies need to be nerfed.

    As to mana i tend to be just fine doing spam FoL. HS and CLEANSE. I might use one mana pot per boss fight.

    I still say people need to stop asking for AoE or HoT heals for pallies because its not going to happen. So instead ask them to make our current skills more raid friendly.

    My turn to call shenanigans....


    One, by the time u're in BT, you'll FORGET about Purify... it just sucks, QED. You'll never replace Purify with Cleanse.... anywho...


    At BT level healing gear... anyone can heal MgT, reg, and heroic... How do I know this?? Because at the SWP level, a Warrior Tank/Holy Pally can do MgT... with ease... it's all about knowing your class...

    If you still can't do MgT, then I have a little something for you to munch on: You're the fail healer that guilds bring along due to the lack of healadins. And you should probably think about reading some forums....

  15. #35
    yiptastic
    Guest

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoLCrazy
    My turn to call shenanigans....


    One, by the time u're in BT, you'll FORGET about Purify... it just sucks, QED. You'll never replace Purify with Cleanse.... anywho...


    At BT level healing gear... anyone can heal MgT, reg, and heroic... How do I know this?? Because at the SWP level, a Warrior Tank/Holy Pally can do MgT... with ease... it's all about knowing your class...

    If you still can't do MgT, then I have a little something for you to munch on: You're the fail healer that guilds bring along due to the lack of healadins. And you should probably think about reading some forums....

    yeah, I'll call that a shenanigan as well.

    I have 2100 healing ~25% spell crit in a mix of S3 and T6 gear. (boy it looks hot) and I have no problem in HMgT. Mind you, I don't even bother running Reg MGT cos it's boring.

    If you can manage your healing, you can keep everyone alive. I've finished HMGT without a single death more than I can count. I've done HMGT in the regular style, and the AE style. and I love AE style as always because it's damn fun and fast.

    outside the topic, but I wanna know if there's anyone finishing HMech in 25 min? I've done it a few times around that timer. me + prot pally + mage mage lock. same group against HMGT and it's sooo freaking easy.

  16. #36

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Quote Originally Posted by mtdew5309

    Also i have healed MGT as a holy pally which does suck to do, but i have done it. Heroic on the other hand i dont do at all. I do understand AoE heals or HoT are needed to do it.
    you suck then, its really easy. I've solo healed every 5 man in the game, 2 healed ZA bear runs, solo healed most Karazhan with a shadow priest. All in BT farm gear and t6 bracer/belt.

    or maybe your groups are terrible.
    Angrychaír - 80 Ret Pally
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khaz+Modan&n=Angrycha%C3%ADr
    Retribution: working as intended.

  17. #37

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    Anyone ever consider that maybe Holy Paladin healing is in sorry need of a major overhaul? Just like the rest of the class has seen over the last year?

    It's time to make Holy paladins more than crit-reliant, single target healers who overheal 40%.

    Fight for something worth having.

  18. #38

    Re: Why holy pallies dont need HoT or AoE Heals

    40% lol. Im usually 60% overheals in most of my raids. Still come out as number 1 pally healer in effective healing though.

    TBPH I think the new glyphs might be all we need to cross the gap of "great single target healer" to "great healer to have around".

    I would like to think that maybe blizz could implement the glyph changes to a talent, glyph the range from 5yds to 30yds and 15%. So deep holy dedicated healers would be more than effective in just about every situation, and would still complement our spam healstyle.
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money; but what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I've acquired over a very long career, skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my daughter go now that will be the end of it. I will not look for you, i will not pursue you but if you don't; I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •