1. #1

    Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Hey...

    Basically, the question is mentioned in the title really. I am aware that Mind Flay received a boost of I believe 30 percent, (and was allowed to crit) as well as numerous improvements in the Shadow Tree, such as shadow power now allowing 100 percent crit, up from the previous 50 percent.

    The biggest problem though, as we all know from the Burning Crusade, is in early content (read gearing) priests performed perhaps the best, certainly my damage was always the highest, but as you progress since we scale so terribly, we start to lag behind.

    Will this still be the same? Is the scaling for SW:Pain, VT, MB, and DP improved?

    Currently in the PTR, my mind blast with everything on (5 stacks of Shadow Weaving, DP, SWP, and VT on) hits for around 4200 crit. (non buffed, just me, myself and i, with no flasks, food, or anything else). I am trying to figure out basically, if we are going to scale properly, or be like a super massive star, and burn brightest in its early years but quickly fall aside.

  2. #2

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?



    A percentage of our scaling issues were to do with the inability of flay to crit and only 50% increase when it did.

    SW:P is the best scaling DoT in the game, or used to be.

    VT is not really there for high damage goodness, but for regen.

    I do not know about MB and SW - anyone?

  3. #3

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Misery. Now has 15% coefficient increase when a DoT is on the target. IIRC, of course.

  4. #4

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    In beta i got a 5400 crit with mind blast



  5. #5

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harima
    In beta i got a 5400 crit with mind blast
    Pah, I had an 8k crit with SW on live.

    Yeah.

    That was smart.

    >_>

  6. #6

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    From Koraa and various Raid guilds in BEta Shadow Priests are getting pretty damn close to DPS with Mage and Locks.

    THe lines are beginning to blur and its great ;D

  7. #7
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    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails

    A percentage of our scaling issues were to do with the inability of flay to crit and only 50% increase when it did.

    SW:P is the best scaling DoT in the game, or used to be.

    VT is not really there for high damage goodness, but for regen.

    I do not know about MB and SW - anyone?
    Did they change MF again so it cannot crit anymore? If so, bleh.
    I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite signature on the forum.

  8. #8

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud
    Did they change MF again so it cannot crit anymore? If so, bleh.

    No it still crits they won't be taking that away from us. Its here to stay now if they just change the whole VT and Replenishment business :'(

  9. #9

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AetherMcLoud
    Did they change MF again so it cannot crit anymore? If so, bleh.
    Nope - " A percentage of our scaling issues were to do with the inability of flay to crit and only 50% increase when [spells that can do] it did. "

    Sorry if I was unclear - I was linking our poor scaling to alck of crit modifyer and a non critting staple spell. In order to illustrate that now we CAN crit with it we should scale better.

  10. #10

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harima
    In beta i got a 5400 crit with mind blast
    Messing around with the dummies in SW on the PTR I averaged between 5300-5400 crits with MB, although I do get the 4 pc T6 10% bonus. My MF's were critting around 1750 a tick. It was kinda sad to see that 3 MF crits=1 MB crit, even with the bonus damage.

    Since MF scales so much better with Haste compared to MB,what I'm wondering is whether we'll get to the point that MF is more dps than MB, that if we have 1-2 other "Replenishers" in the raid, we could just take MB out of a rotation completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mardhyn View Post
    Now this is just blatant trolling, at least before you had the credibility of maybe being stupid.
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    Sometimes you gotta stop sniffing used schoolgirl panties and start being a fucking samurai.

  11. #11

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tasttey

    Since MF scales so much better with Haste compared to MB,
    Please explain/support.

    Also - 3 mind flay crits are far less likely than 1 MB crit, but 1 out of 3 MF crits are more likely.... etc etc etc. It may well be better than MB by the end.

  12. #12

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails
    Please explain/support.
    Because MB has a CD, where MF doesn't, and the MB cool down doesn't start ticking until after the spell has finished casting. Easiest way to look at it is a 1 minute cycle.

    MB 1.5 sec cast -5.5 sec CD
    MF 3.0 sec cast -no CD

    c/m (casts per minute)=[cast time + CD] /60

    MB per minute- 8.57(restricted by CD and cast time)
    MF per minute- 20

    Using 10.9% Haste (171 Rating) Since that is what my spriest currently has at 70 on the PTR. Cast times are listed as they appear on the tooltips.

    MB 1.35 sec. cast - 5.5 sec CD
    MF 2.71 sec. cast - no CD

    MB per minute - 8.76
    MF per minute - 22.14

    Because of the CD on MB its only gaining a 2.2% haste bonus, compared to MF which is gaining a 10.07% bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails
    Also - 3 mind flay crits are far less likely than 1 MB crit, but 1 out of 3 MF crits are more likely.... etc etc etc. It may well be better than MB by the end.
    As far as you concern with the differences between MF and MB crit rates, lets extrapolate that out to another 1 min cycle.

    Using a 20% crit chance (16% from gear, 4% from talents) and our Base (none hasted numbers)

    MB- 8.57 * .20= 1.714 C/m (Crits per minute)
    MF- [20*3ticks] * .20= 12 C/m

    12 / 1.714= 7.001

    Within that 1 minute time frame you're 7 times more likely to land a MF(tick) crit than than a MB crit.

    Now add in Haste

    MB- 8.76 * .20= 1.752 C/m
    MF- [22.14*3] * .20= 13.284 C/m

    13.284 / 1.752= 7.582

    Within the 1 minute time frame you jump to 7.58 times more likely to land a MF(tick) crit than a MB crit. That's a 8.3% increase over non-hasted.

    Now Mind Flay has 3 separate ticks compared to 1 hit of MB. So we'll divide the derived numbers by 3.

    Base - 7/3=2.33(repeating)
    Haste - 7.58= 2.526(repeating)

    So within that 1 minute time frame you are 233% more likely to land a triple MF crit than a MB crit with no haste and 253% with 10.9% haste.


    Edit: Can't spell today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardhyn View Post
    Now this is just blatant trolling, at least before you had the credibility of maybe being stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by SourceOfInfection View Post
    Sometimes you gotta stop sniffing used schoolgirl panties and start being a fucking samurai.

  13. #13

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tasttey
    Because MB has a CD, where MF doesn't, and the MB cool down doesn't start ticking until after the spell has finished casting. Easiest way to look at it is a 1 minute cycle.

    MB 1.5 sec cast -5.5 sec CD
    MF 3.0 sec cast -no CD

    c/m (casts per minute)=[cast time + CD] /60

    MB per minute- 8.57(restricted by CD and cast time)
    MF per minute- 20

    Using 10.9% Haste (171 Rating) Since that is what my spriest currently has at 70 on the PTR. Cast times are listed as they appear on the tooltips.

    MB 1.35 sec. cast - 5.5 sec CD
    MF 2.71 sec. cast - no CD

    MB per minute - 8.76
    MF per minute - 22.14

    Because of the CD on MB its only gaining a 2.2% haste bonus, compared to MF which is gaining a 10.07% bonus.
    Dealing with this piece first - for the sake of my addled brain.

    Basically your argument is:

    The MB cooldown is not influenced by haste. Thereby only 1.5 of the 7 seconds are affected.

    therefore 1.5/7 * 10.9 haste should be 2.2?

    test: 1.5/7 * 10.9 = 2.336

    Why is there a descrepency - the logic seems solid. Help!

    I am not certain I agree with the mathematics by the way, adding the cooldown to the spell is counter intuitive. It implies that what is done in the cooldown is of no value - which is untrue.

    Were I to construct an argument, I would say that haste is a % increase in the dps by a flat % - and only DoT's react differently to that on account of more spells between casts of them as it were. But then I am effectively at your mind blast argument, where the time between re-casting is important. Confusion.

  14. #14

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tasttey
    As far as you concern with the differences between MF and MB crit rates, lets extrapolate that out to another 1 min cycle.

    Using a 20% crit chance (16% from gear, 4% from talents) and our Base (none hasted numbers)

    MB- 8.57 * .20= 1.714 C/m (Crits per minute)
    MF- [20*3ticks] * .20= 12 C/m

    12 / 1.714= 7.001

    Within that 1 minute time frame you're 7 times more likely to land a MF(tick) crit than than a MB crit.

    Now add in Haste

    MB- 8.76 * .20= 1.752 C/m
    MF- [22.14*3] * .20= 13.284 C/m

    13.284 / 1.752= 7.582

    Within the 1 minute time frame you jump to 7.58 times more likely to land a MF(tick) crit than a MB crit. That's a 8.3% increase over non-hasted.

    Now Mind Flay has 3 separate ticks compared to 1 hit of MB. So we'll divide the derived numbers by 3.

    Base - 7/3=2.33(repeating)
    Haste - 7.58= 2.526(repeating)

    So within that 1 minute time frame you are 233% more likely to land a triple MF crit than a MB crit with no haste and 253% with 10.9% haste.
    That works, or seems to. I feel that something does not fit. Again ignoring the cooldown as if it is irrelevant. Stuff happens there, important stuff! Sigh. Struggling to 'get it'. Sorry.

    I think in this instance the way you are presenting it is 'false'. (not intentionally of course).

    The crit chances are simple. 20%
    In casting MB 10 times you crit twice. That would be 15 seconds of cast time.
    In that 15 seconds, 15 ticks of flay, 3 crits.

    So which does more damage in that 15 seconds of cast time? Lets assume flay ticked for 500. critted for 1000. MB hits for 1500 and crits for 3k (keeping in line with 3 mindflay crits = 1 MB crit).

    8*1500 + 2*3k = 18000
    12*500 + 3*1000 = 9000


    This is pretty simple and is based on something I have just realised. 3 mind flay ticks may equal a MB hit.... but the casting time is half/double. Does this say anything? Not sure. It makes my head not hurt anymore.....

  15. #15

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Ntrails got it the second time around, you cant count MB at 7 seconds, its a 1.5 sec cast, so you only save the cast time by not casting it, not the entire 7 seconds.

  16. #16

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails
    Dealing with this piece first - for the sake of my addled brain.

    Basically your argument is:

    The MB cooldown is not influenced by haste. Thereby only 1.5 of the 7 seconds are affected.

    therefore 1.5/7 * 10.9 haste should be 2.2?

    test: 1.5/7 * 10.9 = 2.336

    Why is there a descrepency - the logic seems solid. Help!
    I see where you got lost. Spell haste is not a flat subtraction of the time percentage.

    10.9% of 1.5sec = .1635 sec.

    If it were a flat subtraction then the MB cast would be 1.3365 sec.
    Blizzard will give you 2 decimal places on speeds, but the cast time tooltip still shows 1.35 sec.

    Haste in terms of spells has a different formula than that.

    New Casting Time = (Base Casting Time)/(1 + (% Spell Haste / 100))

    Essentially, 1% haste means allows a player to cast 1 additional spell in the time it would normally take to cast 100 spells.
    Source:http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_haste


    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails
    I am not certain I agree with the mathematics by the way, adding the cooldown to the spell is counter intuitive. It implies that what is done in the cooldown is of no value - which is untrue.

    Were I to construct an argument, I would say that haste is a % increase in the dps by a flat % - and only DoT's react differently to that on account of more spells between casts of them as it were. But then I am effectively at your mind blast argument, where the time between re-casting is important. Confusion.
    While adding the cooldown to the spell seems counter intuitive, for the purpose of testing a 1 minute window with just MB casts in that 1 min, it has to be added. While MB is only a 1.5 sec cast you can't cast 40 of them in 1 minute, because of the cooldown. Blizzard has taken this cooldown into effect when setting base damage and coefficients of Mind Blast in comparison to other "spammable" 1.5 sec casts.

    Basically what I showed was that because of the cooldown on Mind Blast; Mind Flay scales better with haste. Which was what Ntrails was asking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mardhyn View Post
    Now this is just blatant trolling, at least before you had the credibility of maybe being stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by SourceOfInfection View Post
    Sometimes you gotta stop sniffing used schoolgirl panties and start being a fucking samurai.

  17. #17

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tasttey
    I see where you got lost. Spell haste is not a flat subtraction of the time percentage.


    Basically what I showed was that because of the cooldown on Mind Blast; Mind Flay scales better with haste. Which was what Ntrails was asking for.
    1: Rookie mistake! The maths I did works now. Genius. <3

    2: Yes you did, my bigger trouble was with the crit levels and where mind flay becomes a better spell. We shall see

  18. #18

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    basicly get SWP gear with 300 haste unbuffed. +drumms (which gonna be nerfed in wotlk) +bloodlust

    and skull of guldan in the end we have 1.74 sec MF casting time. and when it crits.

    its only for 20 seconds though. but if u think

    MB just nervously smoking in public toilet xD

  19. #19

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails
    1: Rookie mistake! The maths I did works now. Genius. <3

    2: Yes you did, my bigger trouble was with the crit levels and where mind flay becomes a better spell. We shall see
    BTW, noticed a really strange happening on the PTR today. I was just going through some random numbers testing on the dummy in SW and a 2nd shadow priest walked up.

    At that point I was testing the consistency of MB crits vs. MF crits, from an efficiency stand point, since currently at 70, without Meditation, we're horribly inefficient.

    That being said, he applied VT to the same dummy, and my MB proc'd Replenishment for me. Tested this for about a minute, every time I hit the dummy with a MB, as long as his VT didn't drop it would refresh Replenishment.

    Apparently, the way its coded, it doesn't matter who's VT is on the target, as long as its there your MB will proc Repenishment.

    Starts to make me wonder, if you raid with 2 Shadow Priests, could you alternate VT's and still both proc Repenishment for 2 groups of 10 raid members, off the same VT?

    Since VT scales poorly and is a bit of a mana hog, by having the priests alternate VT up times, could you prolong the "mana life" of both priests?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardhyn View Post
    Now this is just blatant trolling, at least before you had the credibility of maybe being stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by SourceOfInfection View Post
    Sometimes you gotta stop sniffing used schoolgirl panties and start being a fucking samurai.

  20. #20

    Re: Other than Mind Flay, did they change any other coefficient ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tasttey
    BTW, noticed a really strange happening on the PTR today. I was just going through some random numbers testing on the dummy in SW and a 2nd shadow priest walked up.

    At that point I was testing the consistency of MB crits vs. MF crits, from an efficiency stand point, since currently at 70, without Meditation, we're horribly inefficient.

    That being said, he applied VT to the same dummy, and my MB proc'd Replenishment for me. Tested this for about a minute, every time I hit the dummy with a MB, as long as his VT didn't drop it would refresh Replenishment.

    Apparently, the way its coded, it doesn't matter who's VT is on the target, as long as its there your MB will proc Repenishment.

    Starts to make me wonder, if you raid with 2 Shadow Priests, could you alternate VT's and still both proc Repenishment for 2 groups of 10 raid members, off the same VT?

    Since VT scales poorly and is a bit of a mana hog, by having the priests alternate VT up times, could you prolong the "mana life" of both priests?
    VT is a mana Hog, but still a DPS increase. Are we really that bad at mana in wotlk @ 80 that using it will make us oom fast?

    However, to the second, I think you are correct. Any VT will be enough as the replensihment seems to come from mind blast hitting and checking for the debuff/the debuff just sees a mind blast and that procs the effect?

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