Why we dont do compettetiv DPS @ lvl 80

[quev]

This whole hybrid argument boggles my mind. I could see if the case were: You cast Holy Light on the mob causing enormous threat, doing significant damage, and healing everyone in group for a large portion of the damage while having tons of mitigation...but that's not the case. If you're DPSing, you aren't healing or tanking effectively, if you're tanking you're not healing or dpsing effectively. It's idiotic, like saying pure classes shouldn't do high dps because they might have alts that can heal or tank. Point being, it's inescapable: if you spec one way you're not going to be as effective in 1-2 others...as a hybrid anyway, if you try to split your points to perform 2-3 roles at once, you'll never be competitive with the pure classes anyway, and this is coming from someone whose main is a pure dps class.

+ 1,000,000

[Dinamic]

This whole hybrid argument boggles my mind. I could see if the case were: You cast Holy Light on the mob causing enormous threat, doing significant damage, and healing everyone in group for a large portion of the damage while having tons of mitigation...but that's not the case. If you're DPSing, you aren't healing or tanking effectively, if you're tanking you're not healing or dpsing effectively. It's idiotic, like saying pure classes shouldn't do high dps because they might have alts that can heal or tank. Point being, it's inescapable: if you spec one way you're not going to be as effective in 1-2 others...as a hybrid anyway, if you try to split your points to perform 2-3 roles at once, you'll never be competitive with the pure classes anyway, and this is coming from someone whose main is a pure dps class.

I think it's a big mess of pvp and pve concerns. Mine are more with pvp.

People aren't expecting you to be 51/51/51. What they're saying is, if you're spec'd ret and do 95% of the damage of a pure class, you're still able to heal or passively mitigate physical damage much better than any pure class. Obviously there are pros and cons attached to anyone's spec and it's not nearly as simple as assigning percentages to dps/physical mitigation/healing. Range, damage type option, all this stuff has to be taken into consideration. But with the changes to spell power and the normalization of dps, hybrids in general got a huge buff.

[Nookius]

<3 Gribble

[Gribble]

Another thing I've noticed is that the people who argue in favor of Hybrid DPS, regardless of class, with solid arguments, are noticeably more articulate and better spellers/grammarians overall (Is grammarian a word? It sounds right...) than those who are simply trying to complain about it. If those of you who want to argue against it want to be taken seriously and considered, I suggest taking the time to make your arguments sound like they came from someone whose IQ is at least average. As an example: Dinamic's post is well-argued, and while it merely states facts rather than offering an opinion, it provides a solid basis on which arguments can be made. To me, it seems he's essentially playing the devil's advocate, or providing a neutral viewpoint for both sides to consider. Regardless of opinion, it's a well though out post, something that can't really be said about most of those arguing against HybridDPS.

If you're willing to come in and explain, rationally and without the fervent "OMG wy u get to dps liek me no fair" perspective so common to the terrible DPS who argue against hybrid power because they know they're going to lose their raid spot if the changes go through (Here's a tip - don't keep us down. Just try to get better), then by all means, come in and make your argument. Until then, keep sitting at your computer hating me. I'll be enjoying it.

[Requiem]

The "Pure dps" classes will still be doing about 200 or so dps more then Ret paladins,fury warriors,and all the other "hybrid" dps classes.

If you suck at your class....you will do less damage then a decent hybrid. If you are good at your class you will do much more then a decent hybrid.

If you suck at your class....you will do quite a bit less then a decent pure dps. If you are good at your class you will do about equal to a decent pure dps.

why is the pure dps whining?

Oh right....they worry that they aren't good enough at their class to keep their spot. Or that they are tools and would be replaced by people that aren't asshats.

Moral of the story folks : Don't be an asshat,Be good at your class and you will get that raid spot.

By the way...I play a tank class so honestly i could care less who is dps'ing behind me.

[Mysmere]

so give other people more mitigation and survivability for pvp, dont you take away my damage o.o

[Fortytude]

Another point:

For all those people in this thread who say "why don't we all roll hybrids then?" you are still going to have to choose your playstyle. Paladins/Shamans/Druids are not the end all of anything. Paladins can't viably range dps, druids are forced to look at the same animal/tree forms while doing anything, and shaman's can't tank viably. So there are still choices to be made even with the hybrids, some people need to take a breather for a minute and understand their class isn't going anywhere just because blizz says they are balancing the playing field.

Now excuse me while I go 1 shot arthas as lolret.

[ChaoticSong]

Another point:

For all those people in this thread who say "why don't we all roll hybrids then?" you are still going to have to choose your playstyle. Paladins/Shamans/Druids are not the end all of anything. Paladins can't viably range dps, druids are forced to look at the same animal/tree forms while doing anything, and shaman's can't tank viably. So there are still choices to be made even with the hybrids, some people need to take a breather for a minute and understand their class isn't going anywhere just because blizz says they are balancing the playing field.

Now excuse me while I go 1 shot arthas as lolret.

Actually, their classes are going somewhere. Most of the people worried about hybrids "takin' our jerbs" are the type of awful player that use the fact that they can easily pull top 3 dps by nature of what they rolled instead of how good they are. This will cease to be so, and thus the raid spots of people who are bad are in danger more so than they've ever been. Competent players have no reason to worry, and in fact, can rejoice because raids will go smoother without idiots who only get into raids because of what class they rolled. It's actually really nice knowing that the players that get benched are going to be the worst of the bunch, rather than the ones who made a choice to pick a class that has the option to maybe stop all dps to do something else ineffectively.

[Mysmere]

am i missing something? is this game hard to play? is it not just the same 3-4 buttons for each player for pve? your top 3 analogy is only useful in guilds that aren't at the highest tiers of raiding. min maxing will take effect and the world will revert itself.

[Tigercat]

Maybe this has already been said, but I feel compelled to correct a couple of things in the OP:

Warrior: Strength - Each strength equals 2.2 ap for a warrior, 2.42 with kings and it increases all their damage, auto attack, MS, BT, slam, execute etc
&#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160;&#160; ArP (armor reduction point) - Once again, this scales with all their attacks, and on top of&#160; that, it kinda "scales" with it self aswell
&#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160;&#160; Crit - Scales with all attacks aswell (with a 30% extra crit damage even) AND with higher crit youll get a higher flurry uptime
&#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160; &#160;&#160; Hit - Good for paladins aswell, but we cap it at 9% so you cant say that we scale with it. Warriors on the other side (well fury at least) need a lot more then 9% so they cant cap it + more hit = more rage

Strength:&#160; Scales more for a paladin than it does for a (fury)warrior.&#160; 100 Strength for a paladin is increased to 115 via Divine Strength, meaning 230 AP.&#160; That same 100 Strength converts to 200 AP for a warrior, which is then increased by Improved take-more-damage stance to 220 AP.&#160; +Attack Power effects are what scale faster for fury warriors, since their talent works directly with AP whilst the paladin talent is based on Strength.

ArP scales better for a warrior because all of their attacks are mitigated by armor in the first place.&#160; Paladins have the luxury of not having to deal with armor on much of their damage.&#160; Inferior scaling due to higher base performance.

Crit:&#160; Where are you getting 30% bonus crit damage from?&#160; 20% crit damage bonus via Impale, not 30%.&#160; Meanwhile, Paladins gain massive critical chance and critical damage bonuses to several of their abilities.&#160; Critical damage bonus to judgements(with +25% chance to crit!) and divine storm is 45%, and crusader strike gains 20%.&#160; Once your gear is strong enough that you're using Seal of Blood/Martyr, what other attacks are there?&#160; The Hammer of Wrath that you can get a +50% crit chance to?&#160; Crit scaling for paladins is fine, at worst.

Hit:&#160; See ArP.&#160; Lower scaling due to higher base performance.&#160; That being said, yes, warriors overall will gain far more from hit than paladins will.



If you were to ask me why paladins might not be the best pve dps'rs around, I'd say it's due to pvp performance.&#160; Making a "defensive hybrid" do as much damage as the other offensive-focused classes, while allowing it to keep the defensive utility, is a recipe for disaster.&#160; Making something godmode in pvp just to make it balanced in pve, while it honestly wouldn't bother me personally, is a bad idea.&#160; I don't speak paladin as fluently as some folks around here(Is Rawberry in this thread?), but that's my view on that particular snippet from the OP.&#160; Flame away!


PS:&#160; Why is it that, when I saw "Why WE don't do..." I knew the thread was about paladins?

[Dinamic]

I'll post it again, because nobody answered, they just kept talking to themselves.


I think it's a big mess of pvp and pve concerns. Mine are more with pvp.

People aren't expecting you to be 51/51/51. What they're saying is, if you're spec'd ret and do 95% of the damage of a pure class, you're still able to heal or passively mitigate physical damage much better than any pure class. Obviously there are pros and cons attached to anyone's spec and it's not nearly as simple as assigning percentages to dps/physical mitigation/healing. Range, damage type option, all this stuff has to be taken into consideration. But with the changes to spell power and the normalization of dps, hybrids in general got a huge buff.


Agree? Disagree?

[Gribble]

I'll post it again, because nobody answered, they just kept talking to themselves.


I think it's a big mess of pvp and pve concerns. Mine are more with pvp.

People aren't expecting you to be 51/51/51. What they're saying is, if you're spec'd ret and do 95% of the damage of a pure class, you're still able to heal or passively mitigate physical damage much better than any pure class. Obviously there are pros and cons attached to anyone's spec and it's not nearly as simple as assigning percentages to dps/physical mitigation/healing. Range, damage type option, all this stuff has to be taken into consideration. But with the changes to spell power and the normalization of dps, hybrids in general got a huge buff.


Agree? Disagree?

Yes, a small amount is better than zero - but you have to take into account the effectiveness of the healing. If people are seriously that into min/maxing a raid, they'd swap out the DPS for a healer instead of having the ret pally heal. If you're having a ret pally heal, it's either because your other healers are bad or you're trying to get by with the minimum - like having a 1-healer kara and having the ret pally heal when necessary (I've done this as prot in a 7man). The main argument is that ret pallies can do *something else* some of the time, but in a guild that would actually care about something like that to the point of keeping out "pure" DPSers isn't going to be doing that anyway, they'll be swapping out specced healer alts. The ret pally comes to do DPS. If he's healing, his spot isn't being used effectively unless there's no other way to get around something- but even then you're sacrificing much more DPS than you're getting in healing by having him switch roles for the fight. The normalization of DPS simply makes it so that you don't bring the hybrid solely for its utility (Like ret in BC, or having a token shammy to WF the melee up until wrath, or an Arms warrior for Blood Frenzy), you bring it because the player behind the controls is good at what he does.

In short, good players have nothing to worry about, good hybrids end up where they should be, and those who are bad at both have no more excuses.

[yomyom]

But PvE is only part of the game, and it is very hard to balance between PvE and PvP.

That being said, pally utility is not about healing or tanking a whole fight, its about emergency use. This happens a lot in a raid and is a sign of a good player. Healers are busy keeping the tanks up? pally puts a heal on him self, raids about to wipe? DI, not to mention you awesome buffs! Pallys bring more than just dps to a raid, some people seem to forget that.

[Dinamic]

Yes, a small amount is better than zero - but you have to take into account the effectiveness of the healing. If people are seriously that into min/maxing a raid, they'd swap out the DPS for a healer instead of having the ret pally heal. If you're having a ret pally heal, it's either because your other healers are bad or you're trying to get by with the minimum - like having a 1-healer kara and having the ret pally heal when necessary (I've done this as prot in a 7man). The main argument is that ret pallies can do *something else* some of the time, but in a guild that would actually care about something like that to the point of keeping out "pure" DPSers isn't going to be doing that anyway, they'll be swapping out specced healer alts. The ret pally comes to do DPS. If he's healing, his spot isn't being used effectively unless there's no other way to get around something- but even then you're sacrificing much more DPS than you're getting in healing by having him switch roles for the fight. The normalization of DPS simply makes it so that you don't bring the hybrid solely for its utility (Like ret in BC, or having a token shammy to WF the melee up until wrath, or an Arms warrior for Blood Frenzy), you bring it because the player behind the controls is good at what he does.

In short, good players have nothing to worry about, good hybrids end up where they should be, and those who are bad at both have no more excuses.

In PvE I completely agree. People only know of what's happened since vanilla wow. Everyone's mindset is based around classes being brought for specific reasons or in a pigeonholed spec/raid makeup. This change isn't going to kick pure dps out, it just opens up who is brought for what reasons to a much broader interpretation. If you're good, you're going to be brought. People are fretting over nothing. It's up to Blizzard to design raid encounters in a way that doesn't continuously favor a specific class. Sometimes? Sure.

In PvP though, hybrids (specifically druids and paladins) are going to be incredibly hard to balance. Maybe I'm nervous for no reason though.

[Gribble]

In PvE I completely agree. People only know of what's happened since vanilla wow. Everyone's mindset is based around classes being brought for specific reasons or in a pigeonholed spec/raid makeup. This change isn't going to kick pure dps out, it just opens up who is brought for what reasons to a much broader interpretation. If you're good, you're going to be brought. People are fretting over nothing. It's up to Blizzard to design raid encounters in a way that doesn't continuously favor a specific class. Sometimes? Sure.

In PvP though, hybrids (specifically druids and paladins) are going to be incredibly hard to balance. Maybe I'm nervous for no reason though.

Well, PvP's been hard to balance for a while. In large groups it seems to be OK, but Arenas are where they're pushing it, and there are some pressing issues all around there.

[Slade]

Blizz stated in a blue post recently that essentially, a good ret pally should beat an average/sub-par rogue in dps, all else being equal. That is how it should be.

We should be beaten by pure dps classes overall, provided they are at least as well geared and as skilled. And we should be able to beat those less skilled or geared. Ret pallies becoming the best melee dps was and will always be a fun fantasy, but never a reality, for logical reasons. I think those complaining about becoming underpowered and nerfed are mostly just choobs and hacks that are still dreaming of old alpha-beta ret dps insanity videos on youtube. Ultimately, we'll have to prove ourselves to earn secure raiding spots and be welcomed into 5 mans often, just as we were throughout lvls 0-70. It should be less of an uphill battle in WotLK at least. And I'm greatful.