1. #1

    My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    It has come to my attention that despite the fact that paladins are supposedly aoe tanks, warriors can generate aoe threat almost as well as us and can do it while taking less damage, if blizzard really intends us to be the aoe tanks then this is not working as intended.

    Here are a couple of changes that I believe would even out the difference without making us overpowered.


    Holy Shield:
    Block chance increased to 100% and charge limit removed.
    My reasoning:
    With the removal of crushing blows from bosses paladins will not be using block rating. This means that in aoe tanking situations we will take more unblocked hits. Allowing holy shield to give us guaranteed blocks would give us the edge in mitigation in aoe situations. The charge limit removal is just because I don't feel that it is necessary for it to have one. I wouldn't mind seeing Holy Shield also buffed to deal damage equal some percentage of block value to counter its complete failure to scale well, but I don't really consider it necessary.


    Judgements of the Just:
    Replaced.
    Holy Ground 2/2: Your consecration spell also reduces the damage dealt by melee swings of enemies taking damage from it by 30% for 15 seconds. Does not stack with effects that reduce attack speed, but will overwrite them if any less potent effects are in place.
    My reasoning: If we are aoe tanks we should have the superior aoe mitigation debuff. This also evens out the lower health and mitigation that paladins have while tanking single targets by lowering burst potential in situations involving being hit repeatedly without avoiding anything or taking parry hasted attacks. 30% would probably end up being overpowered, honestly I wouldn't mind seeing this implemented as anything between 15 and 30%


    Hammer of the Righteous:
    Cooldown removed.
    My reasoning: The threat rotations being experimented with on maintankadin at the moment are an absolute nightmare. This change would allow much simpler threat rotations to be used, and would also solve the problem of tanking weapons not being better for threat than spelldamage weapons even on single targets. It would also make tanking as a paladin more interactive and therefore more fun, which is never a bad thing.


    Feel free to argue against my proposed buffs and/or flame me. I would be interested to see if anyone is actually able to come up with any legitimate reasons why any of these changes are overpowered.

  2. #2

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Its not that those are bad ideas i think you just kinda took them too far. Unlimited charges on holy shield? Yeah, dont get your hopes up, cuz it aint gonna happen. Basically that would let you block all attacks at all times, meaning youd be immune to debuffs caused by weapon hits, which play a big part in alot of pvE encounters, and youd mitigate a crapton with the new SBV formula.

    As for the second one, 30% damage reduction is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much.

    You gotta face that now tanks are being normalized, you are still BETTER at aoe tanking but you are no longer the only one who can do it. I don't think these proposed buffs are justified.
    Rocket Sauce.

  3. #3

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Some slight issues that I see, partly stated by Trolgar.

    1. Holy Shield. Giving that no charges and a 100% block rate would be way overdoing it on the damage midigation considering how much they are increasing the damage absorbed by blocks, If you blocked everything then you would be takeing off from what I hear over 1k a swing on every swing.

    2. Judgements of the justs. Once again, this would add in another 30% damage reduction, pluse the damage reduction from the blocks, and then 6% from your Righteous fury, then the reduction of your armor or the additional magic reduction. This would be a BIG boost on bosses too, not just on AoE trash.

    3. Hammer of the Righteous: The only ability that hits and AoE like that which is not limited by a CD is swipe, and swipe is midigated by armor and has a base damage, not a scaleing ability. http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53533. Overall like Trolgar said, These abilities are a bit too much, and even if they did help on AoE packs, you must also look at what they do to single target tanking.
    Prot paladin-http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Gamof
    Sub Rogue-http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Tatok%C3%AEng
    Also have a warlock, warrior, druid, mage, and shaman at 70

  4. #4

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Trolgar
    Its not that those are bad ideas i think you just kinda took them too far. Unlimited charges on holy shield? Yeah, dont get your hopes up, cuz it aint gonna happen. Basically that would let you block all attacks at all times, meaning youd be immune to debuffs caused by weapon hits, which play a big part in alot of pvE encounters, and youd mitigate a crapton with the new SBV formula.
    Immune to debuffs caused by weapon hits? If a melee ability that causes a debuff is blocked the debuff is still applied.
    The buff to holy shield would be much less noticable while tanking bosses since they hit for a lot more damage block value becomes less useful as a mitigation stat, and honestly we could really use some extra single target mitigation anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trolgar
    As for the second one, 30% damage reduction is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much.
    You are probably right about that, as I said I would be happy with anything over 15%

    Quote Originally Posted by Trolgar
    You gotta face that now tanks are being normalized, you are still BETTER at aoe tanking but you are no longer the only one who can do it. I don't think these proposed buffs are justified.
    Warrior aoe threat is almost as good as ours with the removal of the target cap on thunderclap, and their mitigation while aoe tanking is a lot better than ours. How are we still better at aoe tanking?

    I am completely fine with warriors being able to aoe tank exactly as well as we can, as long we remain two distinct classes and paladins aren't worse than them in other areas.

  5. #5

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamof
    Some slight issues that I see, partly stated by Trolgar.

    1. Holy Shield. Giving that no charges and a 100% block rate would be way overdoing it on the damage midigation considering how much they are increasing the damage absorbed by blocks, If you blocked everything then you would be takeing off from what I hear over 1k a swing on every swing.
    Warriors and paladins will eventually end up with enough avoidance to rarely take unblocked hits anyway, this is my way of improving paladin mitigation while keeping the classes different. Keep in mind that warriors have 4% more flat damage reduction than we do as well as demoralising shout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamof
    2. Judgements of the justs. Once again, this would add in another 30% damage reduction, pluse the damage reduction from the blocks, and then 6% from your Righteous fury, then the reduction of your armor or the additional magic reduction. This would be a BIG boost on bosses too, not just on AoE trash.
    30% was just a number that I threw out there to see how people would react to it. As I said anything above 15% would be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamof
    3. Hammer of the Righteous: The only ability that hits and AoE like that which is not limited by a CD is swipe, and swipe is midigated by armor and has a base damage, not a scaleing ability. http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53533. Overall like Trolgar said, These abilities are a bit too much, and even if they did help on AoE packs, you must also look at what they do to single target tanking.
    Swipe is baseline and hits as many targets as are there, hammer of the righteous is a 51 point talent and hits three targets. It stands to reason that it would be better.

  6. #6

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    You should not forget that guarenteing blocks is equal to uncirttability. If Holy Shield guarentees blocking, we will see lots of lvl 70 paladin tanks with +1000 block value, base deffense, parry and dodge chance. In addition, the fact that no aoe tanking mobs at lvl 70 are hitting more than 2000 results god mod for paladins. Moreover, everyone aggrees that Ardent Defender (AD)is working better on aoe- tanking. So, I call AD the best aoe-tanking talent.

    In conclusion, I don't see any problem with paladin's aoe tanking. Our problem will be about single target-tanking after Shield of Rightereous nerved.

  7. #7

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    "Warriors and paladins will eventually end up with enough avoidance to rarely take unblocked hits anyway, this is my way of improving paladin mitigation while keeping the classes different. Keep in mind that warriors have 4% more flat damage reduction than we do as well as demoralising shout."

    I was under the opinion that they were lowering available avoidance due to how high some tanks were getting it. Reason for the change to shield block.

    "30% was just a number that I threw out there to see how people would react to it. As I said anything above 15% would be fine."

    That might be doable, if they made the damage reduction around what you would receive from the slowing effects of a TC.

    "Swipe is baseline and hits as many targets as are there, hammer of the righteous is a 51 point talent and hits three targets. It stands to reason that it would be better."

    Ours is better, hits for 3x Melee damage unmidigated by armor.

    Also from your response to Trolgar.

    "Warrior aoe threat is almost as good as ours with the removal of the target cap on thunderclap, and their mitigation while aoe tanking is a lot better than ours. How are we still better at aoe tanking?"

    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=25264 - Thunderclap still has a 4 target cap, and they have said many times that they do not intend to remove the cap from TC unless they do not have any other option. Their only AoE ability without cap is shockwave http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=46968, their 51 point talent.
    Prot paladin-http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Gamof
    Sub Rogue-http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Tatok%C3%AEng
    Also have a warlock, warrior, druid, mage, and shaman at 70

  8. #8

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    "http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=25264 - Thunderclap still has a 4 target cap, "
    Correction: Thunderclap has 8 target cap with glyph. http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=43430

  9. #9

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkadin
    "http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=25264 - Thunderclap still has a 4 target cap, "
    Correction: Thunderclap has 8 target cap with glyph. http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=43430
    Your right, I was just trying to leave glyphs out of it since they stated that they didn't want them to be "manditory" But at this time I don't really see any warrior tank not takeing it.
    Prot paladin-http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Gamof
    Sub Rogue-http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Tatok%C3%AEng
    Also have a warlock, warrior, druid, mage, and shaman at 70

  10. #10

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/10/1053...n-changes.html
    NVM guyz, they are removing target cap from thunderclap

  11. #11

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkadin
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/10/1053...n-changes.html
    NVM guyz, they are removing target cap from thunderclap
    Missed that one too. I guess that means the glyph is gone.
    Prot paladin-http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Gamof
    Sub Rogue-http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Tatok%C3%AEng
    Also have a warlock, warrior, druid, mage, and shaman at 70

  12. #12

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    Holy Shield:
    Block chance increased to 100% and charge limit removed. Chronalis' Rating:- Bad in situations
    My reasoning:
    What you said about Paladins not using block rating may be true on live and even in 3.0 at 70, but at 75+, block rating is set to become the thing that people will be stacking. As for the suggested change, it's clearly overpowered. If i had to just cast that once every 8 seconds without worrying abour charges or eating a lot of damage, i wouldn't even need avoidance on my gear. This is bad, as it leads to misinterpretation about the already difficult-to-understand tankadin. For PvP, think how we already dominate melee, regardless of whether they're dps or tank? Yeah, got it? Now times that by 3.33r (in notice of the times holy shield would have been multiplied in effect in the suggested change). Yes, rogues can remove our shield and weapon, but we still got our avoidance. What i'm saying is, if you're against a melee dps and you just have to recast a 100% block increase every 8 seconds, without charges, you wouldn't even have to worry about using other abilities. This leads to lazy tankadins. This is bad. Also, think of warriors shield block. This change would make us the new maintanks simply because we'd be able to completely eliminate things like Shear from the attack table WITHOUT even needing avoidance on the rest of our gear (since you can get 10% from talents). While i'm not against a bit of MTing, i am against making us the new ones, especially when most of us have accepted our place and accepted what we do best.
    I see your reasoning but I still think that holy shield is quite underpowered for a 31 point talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    Judgements of the Just:
    Replaced. Chronalis' Rating:- Average
    Holy Ground 2/2: Your consecration spell also reduces the damage dealt by melee swings of enemies taking damage from it by 30% for 15 seconds. Does not stack with effects that reduce attack speed, but will overwrite them if any less potent effects are in place.
    My reasoning: With 9% global damage reduction from talents and blessing, and a total of 15% from talents and blessing, we really don't need any more damage reduction. This is flat damage reduction too, don't forget that this only kicks in when hit, and if you aren't hit, you've either been missed, or dodge/parry/blocked'ed the attack. Considering we take very little damage in AoE situations as it is (with the exception of packs that stunlock, such as the ones on the way to Mother), we really don't need any more.
    I maintain that since blizzard has claimed that we are supposed to be aoe tanks they should give us some form of aoe debuff that reduces damage, I don't care how they go about it but we should have something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    Hammer of the Righteous:
    Cooldown removed. Chronalis' Rating:- Bad
    My reasoning: No CD on HotR? Sorry, this is overpowered. Think how well it's doing already, and then times that by 6. You need to consider that this can stack SoV/SoCor on 3 mobs FASTER than your melee swings can. On top of that, it has what is supposedly a 5 yard range (it was changed from melee range just a few builds ago, but the tooltip still hasn't been updated). I'd agree with a damage improvement on it, but not the removal of CD. Yes, it'd make rotation's easier. But it'd also make us the new "i wanna be them" class-spec for PvP. We can already dominate 0 resil casters on live without too much of a problem. On PTR, we can dominate low resil casters, and even mid-resil casters if they don't know how to play effectively (e.g. keyboard turning. I won't say clicking as i'm a mix between keybinding and clicking, but i do mousebinding too). For PvE, we'd be producing, well, i'd say too much threat. Think how we already own for threatgen on bloodboil, and how he never wants to leave us alone once we get going, even after a knockback? This change would make us overtake the MT on fights such as that before they'd even built up a full rage bar (nope, i'm not saying that they don't know how to play, i'm just showing how OP the change would be).

    Like i said, i'd agree with an increase in the damage, but i'd completely and downright disagree with removing the CD from it. It's fine as it is really.
    Yeah I guess no cooldown would be overpowered, but something needs to be done to make a high dps weapon better for threat than a spellpower weapon and I don't want that fix to be a nerf to our spellpower coefficients.

  13. #13

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Some of this could be woven into standard JoJ to make it more useful in PvE compared to the other two which dominate it, as is.

    JoJ: Limits the targets movement speed to 100%, and reduces their attack speed and spell haste by 10%.

    Judgements of the Just: Increases the attack and spell casting speed penalty of JoJ by 5/10%, and causes the effect (but not the damage) to be applied to all targets within 10 yards when cast.

  14. #14

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Give Paladins their own version of Critical Block. Problem solved.

    ...and no, Warriors don't produce nearly as much AOE threat as Paladins and the majority of that damage is reactive, meaning it's harder for us to get things back when they come off. Also, Blizz doesn't want Paladins to be the exclusive AOE tank, it's why they're talking about uncapping Thunder Clap and Swipe. Until that is done and Imp. TC is changed, you have nothing to QQ about.

  15. #15
    yiptastic
    Guest

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira
    Warriors and paladins will eventually end up with enough avoidance to rarely take unblocked hits anyway, this is my way of improving paladin mitigation while keeping the classes different. Keep in mind that warriors have 4% more flat damage reduction than we do as well as demoralising shout.

    30% was just a number that I threw out there to see how people would react to it. As I said anything above 15% would be fine.

    Swipe is baseline and hits as many targets as are there, hammer of the righteous is a 51 point talent and hits three targets. It stands to reason that it would be better.


    actually, you are wrong. paladins already have better physical mitigation in AE than warriors.

    block is still very critical in wrath. especially in AE, because:
    1) mobs that you can AE are generally not heavy hitters, so the % mitigation you get from block increases by quite a margin.
    say you have 30,000 HP, and on avg, each AE mobs you tank take 6k damage before you block. since block works after all mitigation from AC and talents, and paladin can get 2k block value easily, paladin will have a solid 30% physical mitigation more than warriors in AE tanking.

    2) paladins can reach 100% avoidance + block at ALL TIMES. warriors can't.
    3) it's absolutely possible for a paladin to block all the AE attacks, while warriors can only force a block once a minute.


    people said pallies have poor physical avoidance than warriors. I say they aren't seeing the whole picture here.

    ASSUMING YOU HAVE BOTH A PALLY AND WARRIOR TANK IN THE SAME RAID.
    okay, warriors have 4% more physical mitigation than the pally. BIG DEAL. here's why.

    aside from avoidance and block chance from gear(assuming in same gear), and being stunned, it's impossible for pallies to take a crit damage or unblocked damage from bosses. Warriors will. the margin isn't small. 20% of the hits that the warrior receive will be unblocked. Of that, 15% chance will be a crit, meaning double dmg.

    this weakness that warriors have automatically cancels out the 4% physical dmg that pallies lack from talents.


    Most AE fights that favors warriors, will almost always be better done by a paladin. If it's heavily spell based, you will take a DK over the two.


    warriors provide the best overall mitigation against bosses that does both physical and single target magical fights.
    against bosses that does physical and AE spell fight, warriors and paladins are the SAME. because spell reflect is now useless.

    I suggest you check your theocrafting and your actual warcrafting experience before you compare paladin tanks with others.


    p.s. AE threat means jack shit. It's who has the better AE mitigation that makes you the better AE tank. cos warlocks can do better job than anyone of us.

  16. #16
    yiptastic
    Guest

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira
    Warriors and paladins will eventually end up with enough avoidance to rarely take unblocked hits anyway, this is my way of improving paladin mitigation while keeping the classes different. Keep in mind that warriors have 4% more flat damage reduction than we do as well as demoralising shout.

    30% was just a number that I threw out there to see how people would react to it. As I said anything above 15% would be fine.
    you mean assuming both classes do not use their block ability?

    If so, I don't think you've tanked before. This is not gonna happen. ever.

    the more avoidance stats you get, the less block rating stats you gain. as you progress further in the game. Look closely at the T4> T5 > T6 > T6.5 tank gear.

    with T7/T8 gear gemed for avoidance, I've done the math and I'm seeing warriors taking roughly ~ 25% unblocked hits. (that's including parry/block/dodge/miss (with 5% miss chance from boss), talents etc etc)

    unless you tell me you can gain another 25% dodge from gear while not losing any bit of block/defense... it's not gonna happen mate.

    warriors and paladins are on equal ground in terms of physical mitigation. I suggest you stop judging simply based on talent tree.

  17. #17

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by yiptastic
    2) paladins can reach 100% avoidance + block at ALL TIMES. warriors can't.
    3) it's absolutely possible for a paladin to block all the AE attacks, while warriors can only force a block once a minute.
    Holy Shield has 8 charges. Shield Block has no charges on a 45 second cooldown and has Critical Block. You are able to block 40% more attacks for a duration of 8 blocks, which with any large AOE pull is very fast. With 4 mobs, Holy Shield uptime is 50% usually. Now, compare to Critical Block, 30% of all blocks are 'double' blocks (500 SBV = 1000 blocked). They even out. The complaint is fights like Tidewalker. Warriors do it better than Paladins in 3.0/Wrath. Right before AOE starts, they pop Shield Block, popping them up to 1400-2000 block value and cease taking damage for 10 seconds. At the end of this they Shockwave and take no damage for an additional 4 seconds. Murlocs will not live longer than 14 seconds once AOE is going full bore.

    That's the complaint. Quick AOEs, Warriors are better. Long AOE's Warriors and Paladins even out. The issue is threat production currently. When TC is changed (soon), it will be an issue to discuss. But, guess what, you're now on even terms with Warriors on single targets. Why shouldn't Warriors be on even terms on AOE?

  18. #18

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by harky
    But, guess what, you're now on even terms with Warriors on single targets. Why shouldn't Warriors be on even terms on AOE?
    Even on terms on single targets? did I miss a patch or something cause last I checked we are the worst tanks come 3.0 thanks to lowest HP, Avoidance, mitigation, and have the weakest of sh*t button.

    If I am wrong people link the blue post to the upcomming changes cause I would love to know.

  19. #19

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    i think the fear of warriors being able to aoe tank is a valid one but at the same time warriors suck at anything more than 3 targets now unless they are amazing at everything (/hax). Blizz gave them a frontal cone, not an actuall aoe whichmeens thay have to manage where the adds are, tkes more skill there than just dropping nubs-icrate (i meen puch a button and you have aggro on an infinite number of mobs as long as they are in rage). and damaging shields is a good ideasince it gives they a kinda passive ret aura in a sence, althought i don't like the fact that it scales really well with blovk valve seeing the changes to block value in the next patch. I personaly think that when peopl get to lv 80 and blizz see's that warriors are going to stack enough block rating to out dmg out ret aura they will do something about it, or not and we'll all QQ enough for them to change it. our ret aura doesn;t stack at all with ap or spell power does it, there is no way to increse it's dmg unless through tallents in the ret tree right?

  20. #20

    Re: My proposed solution to the paladin aoe mitigation problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaylus
    Even on terms on single targets? did I miss a patch or something cause last I checked we are the worst tanks come 3.0 thanks to lowest HP, Avoidance, mitigation, and have the weakest of sh*t button.

    If I am wrong people link the blue post to the upcomming changes cause I would love to know.
    Warriors get +6% stamina and higher base health. Paladins get +12% stamina and lower base health. At high gear levels it evens out pretty well. You have the same avoidance from talents as Warriors. Against single targets your 'extra block' from Holy Shield is slightly better than Critical Block. Your 'oh shit' button reduces 10% less damage than Shield Wall and has a slightly longer cool down when talented.

    Besides, if you understood how to read, you'd notice my comment was about threat.

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