Hey, ret pally's.

[musonica]

Lol any class that has 2 bubbles + trinket + racial, snare removal / immunity, dispels, good healing, 2 stuns + insane burst, mana that seems to never run out and more that fails to pwn in pvp has got to be doing something wrong...

Most battlegrounds are a joke.. scrub pali in blues runs in.. stun, hit.. otherguys health is 50%, they trinket.. stun again hit.. player 20% or dead.. pali bubbles and /gloat.. wow that that took so much skill!

Lol at the pali complaining he sometimes can lose.. if he doesnt use any cooldowns!

Blizzard was trying to even the arena / bgs so that skill>counterclasses, but atm they have a long way to go.

Best solution in my opinion is to only let the palis shield if they are doing no offensive actions... otherwise give all classes some form of complete immunity to balance things.

Just about every single non-pali has said they are OP, its only the ret palis that say they are not... and still they ask for more proof.

[Tigercat]

I can agree with the arcane mages bit.

And yes, I know about forbearance. That's why I used the word "or" instead of "and".

As for FoL, I'm aware of the limitations. Regardless, it's going to be up quite a lot. We're not talking complete god-mode here, I'm aware of that.


I, personally, wouldn't be much bothered if ret went live in an unbalanced state, it's always somebody, I've said this in other threads. I mostly pve anyway, so it would help me more than hurt me. But that's just one person, and I'm thinking more of how wow works for everyone, even the pvp-only nutjobs folks I so much love to hate >.>



And now for the addendums due to added posts! Musonica:

Engrish, please.

[Sorinmae]

like the plentiful number of duels i lose on ptr whenever the other class is skilled/intelligent enough to control me?

fear
slows and good running technique
stuns
gouges

I can lose to anyone that has the brain to do those, unless i blow CDs on them to win, or if luck favors me over them.

besides slows, which do nothing to help that fight, which out of any of those do enhancement shamans poses?

I went on the ptr just about every day this week, and I have about 3 seconds of survival when up against a ret pally. it's not even funny, rogues cant even kill me that fast and they used to be the bane of my shamans existance. I realize the game is not balanced around 1v1, but that is ALOT of burst, more than I've EVER seen an ms warrior put out. and saying just blow your cd's or use some cc mechanic is flawed logic when half the classes out there don't posses them.

Don't get me wrong, i'm glad you guys can do good dps now! but the burst end needs to be toned down. it's not very fair when I cant even get a stormstrike off before i'm dead against EVERY ret pally I see.

[Moar Pew Pew]

Enhancement needs help against everything, not just Ret Paladins lol.

Edit:

I've seen Rogues get 5k Mutilate crits in battle grounds, which is higher than my Hammer of Wrath on no resil targets. Rogues can kill you just as fast.

[Dragonfiregum1]

Lol any class that has 2 bubbles + trinket + racial, snare removal / immunity, dispels, good healing, 2 stuns + insane burst, mana that seems to never run out and more that fails to pwn in pvp has got to be doing something wrong...

Most battlegrounds are a joke.. scrub pali in blues runs in.. stun, hit.. otherguys health is 50%, they trinket.. stun again hit.. player 20% or dead.. pali bubbles and /gloat.. wow that that took so much skill!

Lol at the pali complaining he sometimes can lose.. if he doesnt use any cooldowns!

Blizzard was trying to even the arena / bgs so that skill>counterclasses, but atm they have a long way to go.

Best solution in my opinion is to only let the palis shield if they are doing no offensive actions... otherwise give all classes some form of complete immunity to balance things.

Just about every single non-pali has said they are OP, its only the ret palis that say they are not... and still they ask for more proof.

no one cares about your lvl 70 bg's , especially not blizzard.

[sapiokwlhs]

Promise you won't be dickheads like Rogues are. I mean in the PTR in WSG there was a couple paladins arguing with a shaman about how Op they are at the moment, and they reminded me of all those sub rogues saying "hey screw you were fine you need to learn to play lololol".. and hey I'm glad one of us got some love.

-Your shaman buddy. ;D

you win the 1st bunny of the day

[Sorinmae]

so your saying I should drop earthbind get distance and spam lightning bolt? at ~600 spell damage that would be about as effective as a warrior shooting you with his bow/gun. it's going to be a slow cast, have little talented benefit compared to ele, not to mention you could just, ya know, stun or repentance me and that'd end that pretty quick.

don't get me wrong, you guys DID need love. but I think it went a little overboard.

[sapiokwlhs]

um...

earthbind totem, fire nova totem.
purgepurgepurgepurgepurgepurgepurgepurgepurgepurgepurgepurgepurgepurge
instant ghost wolf
lightning bolt
instant ghost wolf
lightning bolt
instant ghost wolf
lightning bolt
instant ghost wolf
lightning bolt

enhance or no, hey it'd work...theoretically

actually, a resto shaman lasted about 10 minutes against my burst on ptr.


toning burst? its been nerfed already, and i've only heard ONE *cough* person bitch about it at 80. make that two with you.

tell ya what. we drop the burst a bit in return for losing the "chance to do something cool and effective" in all our trees.

'cause we've dealt with this:
http://www.war-tools.com/t41168.html
for too long.

OMG the http://www.war-tools.com/t41168.html talents you made is more epic than the bunny!ROFL

[Moar Pew Pew]

That... was the greatest talent tree ever made. Ever.

/thumbs up.

[Littlejohn]

I have tested the pvp in the beta extensively with the premade 80 enhancement shaman they provided. As well as spec'd resto. resto survives .. but cant kill the paladin. Enhancement doesn't stand a chance. I haven't seen many people actually live up to a ret paladin aside from people kiting. As for the person who suggested the theoretical earthbind totem purge spam ghost wolf lightning tactic, NO!

1) Justment of Justice stops us from running away at ghost speed and isnt removed via shifting or trinket or the new earthbind totem.

2) Enhancement mana pools are very limited when it comes to offensive spells without melee

3) Blessing of Freedom gives the paladin enough time when combined with a stun to break all our moving impairing effects, catch up with us, and kill us.

I'm not saying Paladin are OP (but situationally they are) or that they need to be nerfed (but they will). Paladin sustained dps is lower than my shaman on a raid boss and windfury is broken. But in pvp they can decimate anyone who can't keep them at far enough away to not get judged. The burst dps from a ret is on the high side and will continue to be lowered. But at the same time there sustained is going to go up. Hopefully by release and the first lvl 80 pvp starts on live Ret will be a formidable foe without killing you in under 5 seconds.

The problem the OP didn't understand is ret is only slightly OP as far as pvp. But enhancement shamans are, as they have always been, CRAP in pvp.

[sapiokwlhs]

I have tested the pvp in the beta extensively with the premade 80 enhancement shaman they provided. As well as spec'd resto. resto survives .. but cant kill the paladin. Enhancement doesn't stand a chance. I haven't seen many people actually live up to a ret paladin aside from people kiting. As for the person who suggested the theoretical earthbind totem purge spam ghost wolf lightning tactic, NO!

1) Justment of Justice stops us from running away at ghost speed and isnt removed via shifting or trinket or the new earthbind totem.

2) Enhancement mana pools are very limited when it comes to offensive spells without melee

3) Blessing of Freedom gives the paladin enough time when combined with a stun to break all our moving impairing effects, catch up with us, and kill us.

I'm not saying Paladin are OP (but situationally they are) or that they need to be nerfed (but they will). Paladin sustained dps is lower than my shaman on a raid boss and windfury is broken. But in pvp they can decimate anyone who can't keep them at far enough away to not get judged. The burst dps from a ret is on the high side and will continue to be lowered. But at the same time there sustained is going to go up. Hopefully by release and the first lvl 80 pvp starts on live Ret will be a formidable foe without killing you in under 5 seconds.

The problem the OP didn't understand is ret is only slightly OP as far as pvp. But enhancement shamans are, as they have always been, CRAP in pvp.

GIEF MOAR QQ

[Wyndrunner]

Just got to say this to all you PvP'ers.

l2warhammer (soon anyhoo)

Getting really tired of a game that started out balanced around PvE, where world raids were actually fun, being balanced now, it seems, almost completely around PvP. Classes that were fine keep getting screwed because theyre OP in PvP. I honestly hope that everybody who is really in to PvP just leaves the game, that way blizzard can get the game back to it's roots.

To all the people who will say things like "It's world of WARcraft" etc. I really don't care. PvP was perfectly wonderful for 6 months until they put in honor and BG's.

[Bainz]

I lurved that Talent Tree.

GG Basutai.

[Selenti]

I'm going to put this out as simply as I can. Why are Ret OP? It's not because their base damage is ridiculously high. It's higher than pretty much everyone else, but not that much higher. The problem lies in melee design.

All melee (other than ret & the new DKs) primarily use physical damage. The new ret has all the advantages of mana (being able to frontload all your damage, don't have to build up rage) with none of the disadvantages(new mana pool is infinite). The real deal-breaker though is that most of their damage is now spell damage, which goes straight through armor.

On a target with 0 armor, a TG fury warrior with the best gear in the game actually does damage almost comparative to the ret pally. The thing is, to get there you have to fully sunder and use some ArP on a low armor target (priest, for example). A ret pally gets the same kind of insane damage with no preparation, on any PVP target.

Basically, MS + new ret pally = unhealable.

[Littlejohn]

I wasn't QQ'ing. I'm gonna play my shaman even if they dont fix it, just as my roomie will play his ret paladin. If they leave ret the way it is cool, I have my own ret protector, if they change it, which they have been over the last few builds, so be it. Ret wants to be viable in all aspects of the game but right now at 80 are still only good at burst dmg and lack sustained. So they can be kings of pvp as they are, but still be left out of pve raiding. Blizzard is going to fix all of it. I am glad ret is no longer something to laugh about. I could kill a ret paladin on live with my holy priest. But the fact remains blizzard has been lowering there destructive force build after build recently so if your saying they are fine and they aren't on the high side, blizzard is telling you to go QQ more cause your wrong. Btw, blizzard hasn't even done this fabled numbers pass yet, so it could all change, next thing could be "ZOMG Nerf Enh Shamans they are critting WF on me in pvp for 4kx2 with one handers!"

[Deleted]

Ret pala balanced? rogues Op?

First of all plz read www.worldofming.com

his post about ret in beta. theres ure ***** data. outhealing other hybrids, doing the almost identically dps if not more( compared to hardcore dps classes as fx rogue or fury war). WHILE having more cc. and potential healing.

theres no such thing as : " need to have some OP spotlight " how idiotic.. excuse me but it rly is.

no class need OP spotlight, there must be striven to balance no matter how hard it is. blizzard is a million/billion dollar company, they should have enough testers to do this, even though its a big job.

If ret makes it live, im lvling my last 5 lvls my pala need to 70. its just too tempting.

but blizzard would never let anything like that happen, they would be idiotic to do so.

ohh wait...

[Titanz_Riot]

Ret pala + Holy pala = dominating in arena.

[sapiokwlhs]

Ret pala + Holy pala = dominating in arena.

Failed even as a joke

[ShinKosh]

OH NOES! THE FREE KILL IS FIGHTING BACK WHAT DO WE DO!?!?

Yes Ret Paladins can fight back, yes it had been ruled as balanced, no its not getting nerfed.

Learning to kite is one option, learning to not stand around like a clueless fool is another. I understand this will be ha hard change for you guys who are still of the lolret camp but you know what they say;

In Soviet Lake Wintergraps, Ret Paladins owns you.

Welcome to Wrath of the Lich King.

[c0nscript]

Whenever I fight in PvP against a Ret Paladin I just /lol and walk away from them since they can't stop me anyways.