Now I understand why pures hate hybrids

[Flipguarder]

"Bliz said "instead of coding in threat wipes for all these new high dps hybrids, lets just give rogues an aggro utility for the main tank". So in essence, yes, a rogue being brought along is the same thing as your threat being wiped."

said by a rogue in general forums.

The problem with this guy's logic, as well as possibly other pures' logic, is that there is a misunderstanding of utility. The blessing of salvation is not just a "threat reduction buff to everyone else" no, its utility that the paladin brings. This buff to rogues does NOT qualify as a threat wipe for everyone else.

*dons fire-resist gear*

[Mak]

true but he will boost the tank 's threat alot if the tank is aware of it and takes advantage of it

[vegastommy]

true but he will boost the tank 's threat alot if the tank is aware of it and takes advantage of it

^

This

Oh btw salvation is gone.

[Iradain]

eh,
Hand of Salvation:
Places a Hand on the party or raid member, reducing their total threat by 2% every 1 sec. for 10 sec. Players may only have one Hand on them per Paladin at any one time.
6% of base mana, 30 yd range, Instant cast, 2 min cooldown

[Haseo]

Eww salvation got the worst nerf ever!

I hope the tanks increased threat compensates enough!

[Izenhart]

Eww salvation got the worst nerf ever!

I hope the tanks increased threat compensates enough!

Maybe you got it wrong.

Before was a 30% less threat.
Now is a 2% less threat every 1 second.

Ex. Taking a TBC boss so everyone know what I'm talkin about.
Hydross.
Aggro whipe while changing form, stop DPS 5 second before and after the change.

A DPS'er with the old BoS, will not attack for 10 seconds, not increasing his threat.
A DPS'er with the new HoS, will not attack for 10 seconds, reducing his threat by 2% every 1 sec, = 20% less threat.

[Noddie]

Maybe you got it wrong.

Before was a 30% less threat.
Now is a 2% less threat every 1 second.

Ex. Taking a TBC boss so everyone know what I'm talkin about.
Hydross.
Aggro whipe while changing form, stop DPS 5 second before and after the change.

A DPS'er with the old BoS, will not attack for 10 seconds, not increasing his threat.
A DPS'er with the new HoS, will not attack for 10 seconds, reducing his threat by 2% every 1 sec, = 20% less threat.

I get your point, but why would I want to get a HoS lasting for 10 seconds that reduces my threat 5 seconds before Threat is wiped anyhow by Hydross? I would still overagro if I started to do damage on Hydross before the tank had picked him up, even though my threat would reduce by 2% of say the 3k my shadowbolt just hit it.

[psicorp]

Maybe you got it wrong.

Before was a 30% less threat.
Now is a 2% less threat every 1 second.

Ex. Taking a TBC boss so everyone know what I'm talkin about.
Hydross.
Aggro whipe while changing form, stop DPS 5 second before and after the change.

A DPS'er with the old BoS, will not attack for 10 seconds, not increasing his threat.
A DPS'er with the new HoS, will not attack for 10 seconds, reducing his threat by 2% every 1 sec, = 20% less threat.

yes, but even ignoring for the moment, the extra likelihood of drawing aggro and dying a horrible, painful death BEFORE the hand was applied, even tossing on the hand at an optimal moment will for ONE single person kill threat by 20%. the old version would of killed everybody but the tanks threat by 30%

[Gheed1901]

yes, but even ignoring for the moment, the extra likelihood of drawing aggro and dying a horrible, painful death BEFORE the hand was applied, even tossing on the hand at an optimal moment will for ONE single person kill threat by 20%. the old version would of killed everybody but the tanks threat by 30%

Tank threat is ridiculously good in LK, I don't think threat will ever be an issue.

[Evermorph]

Yeah I was going to say the same thing as the above poster. They rolled threat generation into the tank classes. Pallies, warriors and druids are making so much threat, if you manage to bypass them (which dps classes probably wont), you need to die.

They are steamrollers of threat and death

DK's were still having issues with it and are being worked on to fix.

(and yes I'm in beta)

Evermorph *

[Noddie]

Tank threat is ridiculously good in LK, I don't think threat will ever be an issue.

I know it will be good, but if I time my damage like an idiot I will still hit Hydross the same instant he changes forms (and resets threat). What I was pointing out is that while HoS is a good "Oh god can someone please HoS me my FD resisted" ability it has nothing useful about it in fights where threat reset happens.

Edit: cutting sentences short isn't good

[Surfd]

I agree, Hand of Salv is fairly garbage from what i can see.

First off:
Old salv = 30% PASSIVE threat reduction. No matter what you do, you will ALWAYS be generating 30% less threat.

New Salv
- It is REACTIVE.
- It has a COOLDOWN.
- it is SINGLE TARGET.
- it affects "CURRENT TOTAL AGGRO"

Think about that for a second.
Basicly, new salv will basicly go something like this
- "hey look, the enhance shaman is about to pull aggro"
- The shaman has 20k total threat
- The Warrior tank has 21k total threat.
- Paladin casts "hand of salvation" on shaman.
- shaman loses 400 threat (2% of 20k) every 1 second for 10 seconds, for a total of 4k threat loss after 10 seconds.
- shaman now has somewhere around 16k total threat (slightly more, because he prob hasn't stopped attacking over that 10 seconds)

What you are missing here, is that under the old system, with PASSIVE 30% salv, the shaman would actually have had to be sitting at almost 28.5k threat before he was in danger of pulling from the tank (30% of 28.5k = 8550, making his total threat appear to be ~20k), essentially meaning that the shaman could have done 8k more threat before even having been at risk of pulling aggro, instead of dumping a measly 4k worth of threat once he is in danger of it.

Essentially this means that instead of a PASSIVE 30 percent threat loss for the ENTIRE fight for EVERYONE, the single dps class of the paladin's choice gets a situational threat dump of a pitiful 20% of total threat every 2 minutes (assuming no one else in the group is riding the tank's ass on the threat meters).

[sleeper386]

While that's true, most classes don't really have threat issues, and with a fairly consistent group, you'd know who would be more likely to have high threat in which situations. I (as a destro lock) am usually right behind the tank on most fights (depending on how the spriests are playing on a given night), and it's become fairly predictable that I'll be in that same position each time. Therefore, the paladins know who to save HoS for (and the MT knows who to put Vigilance on for that matter). Also, looking at numbers as opposed to percentages (fairly low numbers I might add) causes the math to appear different from what it actually is. If I'm even with the tank's threat and HoS is put on me, then my threat has suddenly dropped to 80% of the tanks, which gives me a massive opportunity to further increase my output, especially during later parts of fights. That, along with the 2 minute CD on HoS makes this a very useful tool for those (increasingly more rare) situations in which a DPS will be forced to stop DPSing to avoid overtaking the tank's aggro.

[thekuvazs]

And doing this while healing/tanking/DPS-ing ... so i hope all Pallys like multitasking..

[Timotei]

Dude, you now buff the whole raid for 30% less threat the whole time and it doesn't have a cooldown except maybe for the global cooldown so you maybe have to watch out for it if a DPS get a battle res in the middle of a fight and you have to recast it but it's a very situational thing.
After the patch you will buff one single target for an onver-time agro dump at a SINGLE target and it will have an absurd 2 MINUTES cooldown. Did I mention it affects only a single target?

[mashadar]

I agree, Hand of Salv is fairly garbage from what i can see.

First off:
Old salv = 30% PASSIVE threat reduction. No matter what you do, you will ALWAYS be generating 30% less threat.

New Salv
- It is REACTIVE.
- It has a COOLDOWN.
- it is SINGLE TARGET.
- it affects "CURRENT TOTAL AGGRO"

Think about that for a second.
Basicly, new salv will basicly go something like this
- "hey look, the enhance shaman is about to pull aggro"
- The shaman has 20k total threat
- The Warrior tank has 21k total threat.
- Paladin casts "hand of salvation" on shaman.
- shaman loses 400 threat (2% of 20k) every 1 second for 10 seconds, for a total of 4k threat loss after 10 seconds.
- shaman now has somewhere around 16k total threat (slightly more, because he prob hasn't stopped attacking over that 10 seconds)

What you are missing here, is that under the old system, with PASSIVE 30% salv, the shaman would actually have had to be sitting at almost 28.5k threat before he was in danger of pulling from the tank (30% of 28.5k = 8550, making his total threat appear to be ~20k), essentially meaning that the shaman could have done 8k more threat before even having been at risk of pulling aggro, instead of dumping a measly 4k worth of threat once he is in danger of it.

Essentially this means that instead of a PASSIVE 30 percent threat loss for the ENTIRE fight for EVERYONE, the single dps class of the paladin's choice gets a situational threat dump of a pitiful 20% of total threat every 2 minutes (assuming no one else in the group is riding the tank's ass on the threat meters).

You are right it can be seen as a nerf but as tanks generate ALOT more threat you dont really need salv or should not need but just incase pally can reduce threat on single dps that have sick threat generation.
So those skills cant really compair to each other like that.
As all dps class have allready got compensated from the loss of salv with tanks that generate sick amount of threat

[rabbimojo]

To try and sum up what some other posters have said:

The old salvation blessing is gone in a sense, but really it was rolled into threat generation for all tanks.

In other words, think of it as BoSalv existing on everyone who dpses, without even needing a paladin to cast it. Simple, right? So, we have the old salv around, it just doesn't need to take up a buff slot, and without providing paladins with necessary utility.

In addition to this, paladins have been given a nifty little threat management tool in HoS.

The sky is not falling.

[skyclops]

pure & hybrids need each other one cannot exist without the other
yin & yan

[Calaba]

I can see the new HoS being very useful on some fights, especially stuff with threat reducing attacks on the tanks, like Broodlord, Bloodboil, or even LolReaver. Your DPSer about to pull aggro off the tanks? HoS him and he gets to nuke another 20%. Odds are that's enough to kill the boss. (Either that or your tanks are rubbish.)
It's less useful on stuff like Hydross and Illidan, where if you nuke during phase change you've pulled aggro anyway. That's what BoP (now HoP?) is for.

[meowmeow]

"Bliz said "instead of coding in threat wipes for all these new high dps hybrids, lets just give rogues an aggro utility for the main tank". So in essence, yes, a rogue being brought along is the same thing as your threat being wiped."

said by a rogue in general forums.

The problem with this guy's logic, as well as possibly other pures' logic, is that there is a misunderstanding of utility. The blessing of salvation is not just a "threat reduction buff to everyone else" no, its utility that the paladin brings. This buff to rogues does NOT qualify as a threat wipe for everyone else.

*dons fire-resist gear*

i don't see "pure class" as you call it starting to be able to "buff" like a pala.

stop the stupid whine about hybrid and pure, its all bullshit and mainly ppl who write this way have no understanding.
they both talk about different thing:
"Pure Class" can be a priest: for example a Holy priest is the "pure healing class", which give no raid utility and purely build for healing, at the same time priest is one of the hybrid classes in this game (multipule spec).

so seriously, this aquvilant you make, without even understanding anything in this game, and acording to your comment relating what you wrote on a LIVE experiance instead of trying the beta and then talking.

go on mumble on about losing a blessing, while the shadow priest mumble along on you geting the mana regen ability, while the resto druids cry over not having CoH (although atm the druids and resto shamans are in need to be worked on, or priests need to be buffed alot mana wise to hold on - atm no holy's and maybe 1 disci GG), the ferals want a cat that does rogue dps and a dire bear that can tank better then warrior, and the shamans want riptide to be more powerfull then any hot in the game, maelstorm weapon nerf, 51 talent pointers being bad and only PVP (especially in the so called "Pure class w/e that means"). seriously: all healers want to heal like priests, all melee dps want to preform a rogue dps, all casters want to DPS like a warlock, all tanks want to have a direbear armor, high threat and AoE ability. (the tanking was worked abit and on BETA looks good atm, can't say that on healing and DPS).
Yet all so called "pure" classes didn't get a raid utility buff. you don't see Holy priests runing around with a salvation - while you do see a druid claiming his CoH. you don't see a warlock gaining totems, infact i believe the only class that was so called "pure dps" and got some raid pve ability was the rogue (threat to someone).
with all the respect to hybrids:

why do you think you deserve this? why do you "claim" the pure class abilities and whine over nerf or when the pure class gets a buff utility?

so take your self in proportion paladins, losing the salvation just makes u need to be more active in the raid. i know its really hard to time the bop when its called. or close to when its called, thats why you manage to press BoP only after 2-3 mins. your finger is so warmed up for clicking the same exact button, having hands of salvations and more tircks will make u act properly in a pve raid and not just be a nabadin. in addition. as many noticed it is really hard to buff as a paladin (apperantly i have a paladin and never had any problems or delays but somehow when u get 3 nabs in the raid for the blessings they manage to waste 10-30 mins over nothing and screwing up the buffs, so i really think losing salvation will make your life easier: less buffing WE know its hard for you).

i call for a clear nerf to all hybrid class that gained any pure class ability. unless the pure class got a buff utility for raid pve like the hybrids.

does that make any sence? no. talking about CLASS BALANCE
why on earth do u think you will get a "pure class" DPS steal the shadowpriests "utility" and still whine over losing a buff?

seriously some classes should be nerfed - if i pass on all the tree's its mainly the hybrid classes and specs: why? cause now in addition to having a "Buff Utility" to the raid, they can preform like a "Pure Class".

For example: to my experiance: a retridin toping the DpS Chart (on the log, did 800 more DPS then the hunter under him, got to 3,100 DpS on C'thun 10m), a shaman and a druid healing single target and raid better and more efficiant then any healer, while the priest stand oom most of the time not casting the "hybrid healers" spam and spam without going oom ofc and with the powerfull "priest" heals, DK being one of the easiest to heal, warriors still haveing small complaints about rage.
and even more: ele shaman doesn't even match the boomkin - DPS and Buff wise, the healer priest is gone, even i've been playing a resto shaman and a holy paladin, all the dmg is increase. HP, Mana, Yet the spirit class was nerf, the spirit as a stat.

all i can say is one thing:
it is going to be just like on early kara/ssc/tk/mag/gruul days pre lady vashj nerf where all u saw in raids was paladins and shamans.
so from all the classes hearing paladin crying about raid utility buff... just
pathetic.
play more on beta and you'll start thinking you are just fine.

but i won't worry: i am sure changes will be made: you can't leave some of the changes like this. kicking players out of the game, kicking specs out of PvE. Just like when BC came out classes were kicked.

let me assure you it isn't the paladin class, atm from what i've seen it will probably be Holy priest in PvE, Shadow Priests in Pvp, elemental shaman in PvE and boomkin to my veiw will be "fighting" over same spot: though pure win to the balance druid (resto shaman will drop whats needed them and paladins and druids will be the main healers in anyway), a retri, enhanc and DK atm fight over 2 spots: atm retri and enhanc are wining since DK takes a tank spot. i havent seen a Cat.

from all the directions i look at paladins are just fine. even abit more then fine. even if you remove abit, or more then abit you will be fine.
but really whining over the pure/hybrid reason is well ignorante. since:

CLASS BALANCE what did u think? that pala's will be exceptionals.

ps: if hands of salvation is that garbage surfd, don't use it. i can tell you useing your abilities and spells is part of this game, not only pressing 1111111. and in this expantion - blizz really tried to tie the notch on not pressing 11111 but being more active in raid. they went abit lost with spirit, overpowered afew healing and dps specs, but it will be balanced (hopfully nerfed or buff to the classes that weren't buff). and usually when you tend to whine over crap: atleast know what your talking about - play the beta. and if you don't have it which i assume. dont post missliding ignorant bullshit.