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  1. #61

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Talking PvP here

    I really cannot understand these changes in Holy at this stage, so close to the patch and WotLK.

    What is the point in nerfing Infusion of Light? It was not overpowered or imbalanced being crit-dependant, it is not something you can control at all (aside from once every 2 minutes). And it WAS a fun mechanic, and it gave paladins a chance against interrupts, poisons, CoT... all of which goes down the drain now. 1 sec = 2 secs or more in arena with most debuffs, and any heal that takes that long is going to be pummeled, kicked (both out of the GCD now, btw), CS'd and whatnot. FoL glyph's HoT component has been nerfed too (from 200% to 140%), btw.

    So we are suppossed to spend 7 talent points (5 in Light's Grace, 2 in IoL) so high up in the tree to get... what, exactly? A 1 sec (2-sec in most PvP situations) Holy Light? Wow.... really... WoW...

    Divine Plea... don't get me started.

    Nothing has changed, and I mean NOTHING. A paladin will step in a BG and be Manadrained, CoT'd and interrupted to death just like before without Blizzard's development team being able to provide anything better than reducing Holy Shock's CD to 6 seconds, which, yes, is nice, but... is this ALL you had in store for us? And you think it is going to be good enough? And you think it is going to be FUN? Like at all?

    Welcome to TBC arena again, i.e., NOT welcome.




  2. #62

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    Right ok you keep thinking that ummm mr how many game days played ?
    That doesn't really have anything to do with tjansons point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    I'm just a jerk and I'm fine with that because i am a product of my wow environment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    You say i suck ? i say Ptr lets go.
    He actually said either you suck or your just unbearable to play with, I think you just admitted to the latter.

    There was once a feral druid in one of my old guilds, im happy to admit he was a great player but he was so incredibly arrogant and abrasive with other guild members that we kicked him simply because no one could stand raiding with him.

    Realistically if you are being replaced by a holy paladin for your spot in a raid as a ret paladin then the raid leader either had something going wrong in his head or personally knew the holy paladin in question, because it makes little sense to think "hmm need another dps for this raid, guess ill take that healer". Either that or as it is becoming increasingly more apparent your too difficult to raid with because of your attitude.

    Hopefully by the time Wrath launches all our specs will be viable in a raid environment because for the first time in 3 years I am excited about trying out all different paladin trees. I say this even though looking at all trees now they each look pretty strong, sure I would like some changes but I think it is incredibly rare that any class says "you know what I am 100% happy with every talent tree I have and would not change a thing".

    I do think it is quite narrow minded however to think that any buff to one tree merit's a nerf to another or even that one spec deserves to be nerfed because a lot of people play it, not only because they wanted to but also because they had to if they wanted to see a lot of end game content in early BC especially.

  3. #63

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Agreed, I thought the entire point of playing a hybrid spec was that you can fill whatever role a guild needs you to, if necessary. Without having to roll another toon. I mean, how retarded is it to get angry over buffs given to a different tree of the same class? I see some of this on the priest forums... "WTF SHADOWPRIESTS GET BUFFS AND ALL WE HEALERS GET IS A KICK IN THE ASS, DIE SHADOWPRIESTS"

    The solution isn't to wish doom upon your own class, it's to hope that Blizzard fixes the tree you usually play. And so far they've given paladins of all shapes and sizes some shiny new toys.

  4. #64
    High Overlord Necrox's Avatar
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    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    I do not agree with Ungratefuls way of expressing himself, but I do agree with the bias.

    I'm not a particularly good Ret on live, but I know several paladins in my guild who are. They really REALLY want to play ret, but it's only been after our guild had a sunder and lost our (warrior, as it happens. A bit funny :P) raid leader, that they've been given a chance... because we lost so many DPS in the process that the guild doesn't have enough "real" DPS without bringing Ret. So now they are getting the gear, and they are making up the numbers, and showing what Ret is made of.
    Now.
    Because the guild is forced to.
    Not before.
    Not when we were learning and gearing up.
    Now that their back is against the wall.
    A guild that I otherwise love to death, and this is by far not the only guild to have this attitude. There ARE big raid guilds that have Ret at the top, but the further down the progression list you get, the harder it gets to find a spot for us less hardcore Ret's who can't raid 6 times a week and have to settle for a 3-4 times guild.

    This is because of the lolret notion, and the fact that Ret starts out with shoddy DPS untill they start stacking gear - which isn't happening since we're not invited to even 5-mans.

    As I said, I don't agree with Ungratefuls way of coming across, but I understand his frustration and have shared it for just as long. That there are a handful of guilds RL's who understand what we can bring does nothing for the rest of us when the widespread notion is "lolret".


    So I am not crying that I will finally have good ammunition when I tell them I want to raid as Ret, not Holy.
    (and as I've said before, I don't suck in PTR. The mechanics work better for me so my game is tighter )
    My name is Necrox, and I'm an altoholic.

  5. #65

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nykee

    You're an idiot dude. Like really. This has to be the dumbest thing I've ever read on a paladin forum.

    Yea its a NEEDED change to take away a useful tool because REAL healers like to be as least effective as possible. A+++ reasoning there champ.

    I mean, I CAN scale a straight wall using my fingernails, it doesn't necessarily mean thats the best way to do it.
    Please dont bother to post again. And i actually agree with the poster you commented on.

  6. #66

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    @ Ungrateful

    So how many times in that detailed history were you actually replaced in a raid by a holy paladin when you wanted to come as ret? Which I thought was your original arguement.

    Ret paladins are viable in BT/SWP level gear btw and in fact could put out better dps than some of the other hybrid dps classes when in the right raid setup at that level. Im not surprised if you have had problems raiding as ret as kara and grull level because I have found myself when playing as ret in gear at that level that the dps is very poor compared to other classes.

    I apologise if you are infact a very level headed person who has been unlucky in the past when it comes to finding the right guild for you. But your not doing yourself any favours when you respond to players of the same class as yourself by flaming them when they want to know why you think a spec they play deserves to be nerfed because youve had some bad experiences in the past with people who arnt even playing as paladins.

  7. #67

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    Actually I'm very pleasant to raid with on any of my 7 character. My attitude when it comes to raiding and getting things done is very narrow, I do my job, I don't stray from my job, and I do it to the best of my potential and don't get distracted.

    Let me explain something to you, raiding as a ret paladin isn't viable at first, but as you get gear and progress you start to see the damage and it slowly balances out, however most guilds expect a min dps from their dps classes and if you are even 20dps lower, you are passed up for another class that can dps before gearing up. It has nothing to do with skill, just arrogance in the WoW community.

    I'll give you my history, since everybody likes to assume SOOO much. The first guild i was ever in, we were clearing ony, mc, zg, and heading into BWL and a warrior QQ so much the guild disbanded.

    The second guild i was in, we were clearing BWL, AQ20 and 40, and heading into naxx clearing a few bosses. One week after the guild leader (warrior) received the second piece for the Thunderfury, he took 13 of his friends that were also guildiies and merged with a higher progression guild right before TBC launched leaving the rest of us scattered and guildless.

    The third guild i was in, we were clearing kara, and heading into gruuls at the beginning of TBC. I went in as a ret paladin, and the co-guild leader and leader ninjad two items from me when i had more DKP then they did and I was priority. The co leader was a warrior (seeing a trend?).

    The forth guild i was in, i decided to go in with my rogue this time, we were clearing kara, ssc, gruuls, mag, and heading deeper into TK. Everything was fine, up until we merged with another guild. The leader of that guild then became the leader of the reformed guild. A week after the merge the guild leader (warrior) and the rest of the guild mates he brought over, ninjad the guild bank and xferd to a different server.

    It's not a fact that I am bad at raiding, I know all my stuff, I'm good at what I do, and I have friends on different servers that want me to xfer, but that's beside the point. I don't raid for many reasons but not because " I just must suck" or " i'm an asshole" .

    Don't think i am narrow minded either, I believe that every CLASS, and every SPEC of every CLASS should be VIABLE, for all CONTENT of the game. You can sit there and think what you want, I'm not angry at paladins, I'm angry at TRASH paladins.
    Ugrateful

    You are bittered because a lot of stuff happened to you wich are totally not concerning this topic.

    we are paladins together wether we are holy, prot, or retri we should support eachothers spec and try to solve our problems together and give some feedback.

    having like fights among ourselves about different specs and stuff only amuses spectators
    who give laugh at us and call us crybabies.

    flaming has no use, eventually people dont know anymore what they are bitching for.
    beside eventually everyone will try the 3 specs sooner or later.

    i have 2 paladins too Ugrateful and maybe more played days, a dwarf and a Belf
    with my dorf on an insane unhealthy effective playe days before TBC came out.
    i have killed everything what could be killed.

    but the point is every single player has his own play style, some are good some are working but less good.

    Calling someone a Nub or tard isnt really helping on what we are sharing opinions about.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    that a side.

    im not such a theory crafter myself as im not good in algebra and maths and formulas and shit, but i have my feeling and it never abandoned m before.
    i dont think Holy paladins will ever use Divine plea.

    concerning infusion of light:
    like is said before if HS gets the same crit rating as HL wich you will have a lot
    with the original version you would have a 40% chance that you, after every 15 secs,would have an instant HL wich in pvp would the same as having each 15 secs a NS heal wich is basically insane ^^


  8. #68

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Quote Originally Posted by Val3rim

    use a disadvantage to your advantage by adapting.


    That.

  9. #69

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful


    Holy paladins will be fine, as they have always been. If you don't agree, I'm open minded to hear your concerns.
    im no totally agree on that:
    my experience as TBC paladin is this:
    can i have a SP with a SP i can do so much more!
    answer: why do you need a shadow priest, its not that you are a healing god

    and to see it closer hes actually true
    most of the time in an instance you are clearing trash i mean thats
    what you are doing 20 min of trash 6 min - 10 min boss
    and yes in trash we can better sit down and watch as shamans, priests, and resto druids
    are allways faster on the ball

    and on a boss one target spamming isnt allways enjoyable as well.

    so yes its a bit narrow minded designed.

  10. #70

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    No need to apologize, I believe you misunderstood my method. When i first came into this form, people were crying about holy "nerfs". The same people that are crying about holy nerfs, are the same people that point and laugh at "lolret" paladins. I was simply reflecting that image upon them. Maybe we can start working together as paladins now, or at least the ones that read these boards, and cleanse or noble brotherhood of holy valiant knights from the LOLRET and calm the nerves of overacting Holy paladins. WOTLK isn't out yet, we still have time to go, and there will still be patches as always after the release, Holy paladins will be fine, as they have always been. If you don't agree, I'm open minded to hear your concerns.
    Well, lesson learned for you then, text mediums are not very good at conveying sarcasm. People just assume you meant what you say (imagine!) so it's best not to try subtlety.

    As for Ret, it is fine now on live and has been since it got overhauled and it looks like it will persist in being so into wrath. Yeah, you are forced to PvP if you want to get geared up but that same issue applies to DPS warriors. Its only real problem is that it sucks hard on trash pulls where the lack of aoe damage keeps it low on damage meters. If your guild just looks at overall damage ret will be low but on boss fights where it matters ret is pretty competitive (in addition to providing a lot of very nice buffs). I raided as Ret all through MH and BT and did just fine though I am back as Holy most days now for sunwell (more to do with finding it hard to fill up healer spots for raids than not wanting to bring a ret pala to the raid).

    I do see something having to give for Ret right now on PTR though. Unless it just doesn't scale or something which seems unlikely I just don't see the current way it is layed out working. Competitive DPS is what Ret is for. Right now it has competitive DPS, good crowd control and good healing all rolled into one. On PTR I have more spell power if I just wear my healing gear as Ret spec than I do if I spec full Holy. With good mana regen and the hot effect from crits Ret healing is very good.

    Now I will probably take my warrior into wrath as my main instead of paladin just because I am finding warrior a lot more fun to play. Holys 2 button spam and the boring as hell rotations of Ret and Prot have bored me to tears. The more dynamic rotations of the warrior just make it more fun for me. I will of course level up the paladin and was going to keep her as holy but now I don't know. With the changes today holy shock just went back to being little more than an instant flash of light that costs twice as much mana (pretty much the same spell we always said was fairly useless). It is a thing people are ignoring about Infusion of Light, yeah you get a chance to proc a natures swiftness type effect but you pay 11% of your base mana as a premium over FoL to get that chance. Each proc is going to cost you about 33% of your base mana.

    Finally, absoultely the worst thing that could happen for Ret Paladins would be for holy to cease to be a viable healer. If that happens all the holy paladins will want to respec Ret making it impossible to get a raid spot as Ret due to oversupply.


  11. #71

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    No, just no, all of what you said, just no.

    Warrior boards---------->


    Ah fucking Warriors i swear to god


    Wait wait wait. I c wut u did thar.
    I see what you did there, its called an ad hominen attack. Rather than point out any flaws in what I say, you instead try to discredit me just because I freely admit I find playing warriors more fun these days. My comments on the Paladin class are either good or they aren't. If I like to play warrior too that has nothing to do with it.

  12. #72

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulver
    I see what you did there, its called an ad hominen attack. Rather than point out any flaws in what I say, you instead try to discredit me just because I freely admit I find playing warriors more fun these days. My comments on the Paladin class are either good or they aren't. If I like to play warrior too that has nothing to do with it.
    Stop arguing with Ungrateful. This thread is already long enough it doesn't need any additional Trolling.
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  13. #73

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    divine plea seems to be fixed again for holy palas to use

    you know what i really would see?

    an appologie from all those whiners who asume blizzard isnt listening and like to screw up paladins

    i said it before they are listening more than ever

  14. #74

    Re: New paladin changes newest build....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugrateful
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulver
    I see what you did there, its called an ad hominen attack. Rather than point out any flaws in what I say, you instead try to discredit me just because I freely admit I find playing warriors more fun these days. My comments on the Paladin class are either good or they aren't. If I like to play warrior too that has nothing to do with it.
    Really cause i could of swore i have a lvl 70 Warrior as well but the problem isn't that i don't enjoy playing him the problem is he is just too damn stinking good when teamed up with a class/spec that is over stepping their budget. I don't try to discredit anyone, i let them do that them self.

    What it seemed to me is that you purposely said everything wrong regarding the class to get a rise out of me and frankly at first it sort of worked. Ah human nature got the best of me that time.

    Ill get you Gadget ! Next time, NEXT TIME GADGET !

    The only reason you said what you said and through the Warrior label on it is because,

    1. You now know my history with them and yes there are some sour feelings against players that play that class. That's natural.

    2. You where using my tactic against me regarding this and trying to discrect whatever i say as a Paladin about Paladins. Well grats, maybe made some a believer out of it.

    If you do enjoy playing a Warrior I'm happy for you and best of luck. However if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem and saying "well Paladins just don't appeal to me" in hopes to fine others that feel the same while at the same time trying to make a fool out of other Paladins that are trying to relax community by showing their flaws and give them hope by saying, "Hey our spec finally is viable. OMFG we are finally viable." show that Blizzard hasn't totally forgot about the class makes you look like a bit of a Moron from my pov.

    However that's just my opinion so you can take it like a gran of salt and move on to playing your beloved Warrior of keep trolling us Paladins that actually give a damn about this class.

    Your call

    I see what you did there, its called an ad hominen attack. Rather than point out any flaws in what I say, you instead try to discredit me just because I freely admit I find playing warriors more fun these days. My comments on the Paladin class are either good or they aren't. If I like to play warrior too that has nothing to do with it.

    Spotting a pattern yet?

    Let me make it simple for you since you don't seem to get the point. Address my statements about the paladin class, not my personal play preferences. If they are wrong state why. It is the difference between debate and a slagging match.

    Just to make it easy let me restate the original assertions one by one.

    1. Ret is fine on live with the caveat that you need to farm PvP gear to get started.
    2. Rets poor damage on trash mobs is why it looks poor overall. It's damage against bosses is competitive even without all the buffs that it brings to the raid. If a guild just looks at overall raid damage instead of boss damage where it matters this can make ret look weak in comparison to other dps.
    3. Competitive DPS, good crowd control and very good healing all rolled into one is too much to give any spec.
    4. The change to Infusion of Light put holy shock back to where it was as basically a high cost instant flash of light.
    5. The extra mana you spend using Holy Shock instead of FoL to proc Infusion amounts to about 33% of your base mana. This extra mana usage needs to be factored into any decision about how good or bad Infusion of Light can be.
    6. The worst thing that could happen for Ret Paladins would be for holy to cease to be a viable healer. If that happens all the holy paladins will want to respec Ret making it impossible to get a raid spot as Ret due to oversupply.

    So please, address those points, not me. If I am wrong, point out where. Since you seem sure that I was just trolling when I made those points presumably you have rock solid counterarguments to each and every one.

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