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  1. #21
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    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Ntrails absolutely agree, but I want to check out how it goes on live first.

  2. #22

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    I can see your point here and I think I misread the talent for Imp Shadow Form. Is Imp VE > 3/3 Focused Mind though? I did some math in another post and showed that Imp VE does become beneficial but saving more on mana seems a little better to me. I don't know how well we are regenerating at the moment but I feel better off taking that in terms of adding a little more healing when healers make up for that. Dropping Inner Focus shouldn't be too shabby, but I don't agree that 3/3 Shadow Weaving is needed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shadow Weaving is still a Spriest wide buff to my knowledge so 2 Spriests at 2/3 SW should be able to keep it up at all times regardless of movement. 3/3 in P&S is a must in my books because it is limited to your SWP and I'd hate to cast that more than once in a fight if I don't have to.

    Nezoia, I was raiding SWP before I took my leave till the expansion. =/ Oh, and I agree not going 5/5 Imp MB is just noob because of haste.

  3. #23
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    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shadow Weaving is still a Spriest wide buff to my knowledge so 2 Spriests at 2/3 SW should be able to keep it up at all times regardless of movement.
    Then let me correct you: It's not.

    You gain it as a personal buff, it's not a target debuff anymore.

  4. #24

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    1 point in focussed mind vs Inner focus.

    Focussed mind is one free Mind blast (for example) every 3 minutes. That is 17% base mana.

    Even if a SW:P it is a free 22% base mana. Or Devouring plague at 25% base mana.

    Now Focussed mind is 5% cheaper Mind blast, Flay and sear.

    In the 3 minute cooldown of Inner Focus, you should cast AT LEAST 21 Mind blasts (assuming over 8 seconds between casts).

    21 x 5% = 105% --> So you have saved (probably well over) 105% of the cost of your free mind blast in that time, just from cheaper mind blasts.

    As for how many mind flays you would cast - I cannot see it being fewer than 21 again (how often do you not cast a flay between blasts) which is 105% of 9% of base mans.

    So focussed mind will save over 26% base mana in the 3 minute cooldown of Inner focus. This, to my mind, makes it a far stronger talent point. On top of that, it scales with haste, of which there will be a lot come WotLK, where Inner focus does not.

    ==============

    Using it with mind sear. Yes, you might, saving 28% of base mana, but on trash mana for AoE is rarely an issue (outside of speed runs), and aoe bosses are quite rare. Modelling a comparison for that is difficult since you cannot safely estimate how many sears might need to be cast. Since 5% of 28% is a bigger number than either of the other spells I suspect focussed mind would be at least as good in those situations.

    Anyhow - just me thinking aloud, since a few have taken IF over focussed mind.

  5. #25

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    I wish to make sure everybody understand how important spellhaste is, and going to be for us.
    /amen

  6. #26

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Nezoia, thanks for the correction. I guess I missed that it's a self buff not a target debuff.

    Yes I did some math and I agree Focused Mind > Inner Focus. The issue I'm having is between going 3/3 Focused Mind and dropping Imp Shadow Form or Imp VE, or keeping 1/3 Focused Mind and keeping both Imps. =/ Here's some numbers, tell me if I'm wrong anywhere here. Sorry for the wall of text before hand.

    The benefits of Focused Mind:

    As an example with easy numbers;

    Base mana = 10k
    MF = 9% base mana or 900 mana in this case.
    MB = 17% base mana or 1700 mana in this case.
    MS = 28% base mana or 2800 mana in this case.

    MF cost at 5/10/15% reductions = 855/810/765
    MB cost at 5/10/15% reductions = 1615/1530/1445
    MS cost at 5/10/15% reductions = 2660/2520/2380

    The benefits of Imp Shadow Form:

    When casting a spell:

    * The first and second hit will add .5 secs each to the cast time.
    * All hits after the second will have no effect.

    When channelling a spell:

    * The first and second hit reduces current duration by 25% of total duration each.
    * All hits after the second will have no effect.
    This means with Imp Shadow Form the amount of casting reduction you take is 70% of the maximum 1 second that could be added to any cast spell. So basically Mind Blast can only be at maximum .3 seconds longer than it normally is, with 0 haste a maximum of 1.8 seconds when interupted (not counting debuffs that increase your casting time).

    MF = 3 second base channel. A maximum of 50% or 1.5 seconds knocked off. 70% of 1.5 seconds is 1.05. So essentially the maximum that could be knocked off of the channel is .45 seconds, or at most only 1 tick and not 2 that you most likely will lose if hit twice without it.

    The benefits of Imp VE:

    Assuming we have 2k DPS (2000 * .25 = 500 HPS). Now, apply the same math for 15% (2000 * .15 = 300 HPS). Beta testers are putting our DPS at a 2500 benchmark so lets use that now. Imp VE = 2500 * .25 = 625 HPS. Normal VE = 2500 * .15 = 375 HPS. It's a 250 point increase in heals done at a benchmark DPS.


    Now I know I threw a lot of numbers out there and I want to lean towards 3/3 Focused Mind and no Imp VE but I want to know if the 10% extra mana saving (to get his 10% do a 5% reduction divided by a 15% reduction, subract this number from 1) is going to be more important than the 40% (to get this number divide the 375 by 625 and subract from 1) increased healing we get. I know math wise 40% > 10% but in terms of healing vs mana saving I want to ask what your opinion is.

  7. #27
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    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Addition to spellpushback: Illidan , Phase 2.

  8. #28

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by noz3r0

    The benefits of Imp Shadow Form:

    This means with Imp Shadow Form the amount of casting reduction you take is 70% of the maximum 1 second that could be added to any cast spell. So basically Mind Blast can only be at maximum .3 seconds longer than it normally is, with 0 haste a maximum of 1.8 seconds when interupted (not counting debuffs that increase your casting time).

    MF = 3 second base channel. A maximum of 50% or 1.5 seconds knocked off. 70% of 1.5 seconds is 1.05. So essentially the maximum that could be knocked off of the channel is .45 seconds, or at most only 1 tick and not 2 that you most likely will lose if hit twice without it.
    Assume that it is a full spell pushback fight.

    For every 1.5 seconds you sped casting non-instants (everything except DP now it seems) you will lose an extra .7 seconds

    So for 1.8 seconds WITH Imp SF you take 2.5 seconds without. That is an extra 72% time spent casting without imp shadow form (on a 1.5 second cast).

    Channelling: 1.5 seconds pushback or .45 seconds. Losing an extra 1.05 seconds. Put simply there is a greater chance of getting 2 flay ticks with it. Hard to model simply.

    Clearly on fights with spell pushback, your DPS suffers massively - even with the new changes.




  9. #29
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    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    It's not just a matter of dps loss.

    A great example is Hex Lord Malacrass in Zul'Aman. You're on shackle duty, and need to shackle during the shadow volley that create massive spellpushback.

    If you fail shackling, your raid wipe.

    Now, iknow one could simply shield and shackle. But the talents are given good out on this antipushback.

  10. #30

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    It's not just a matter of dps loss.

    A great example is Hex Lord Malacrass in Zul'Aman. You're on shackle duty, and need to shackle during the shadow volley that create massive spellpushback.

    If you fail shackling, your raid wipe.

    Now, iknow one could simply shield and shackle. But the talents are given good out on this antipushback.
    To be honest if you did not re shackle 1.5 secs before bolts, then you failed.

    Also shield did not necessarily absord all teh bolts to cast shackle. I agree though. No good reason not to take it.

    <3

  11. #31

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Eloro
    There's loads of reasons not to take imp shadowform, the main one being you lose either

    1) Imp VE
    2) Mediation
    3) Veiled shadows
    4) Focused mind
    You need only lose out on 2 points of a mana regen talent. Surely this is dependant on whether all of those are necessary at 80?

  12. #32
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    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Eloro
    There's loads of reasons not to take imp shadowform, the main one being you lose either

    1) Imp VE
    2) Mediation
    3) Veiled shadows
    4) Focused mind
    Really? Where?

    13/0/58



  13. #33
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    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Eloro
    5) Inner focus
    If I get pushback ~2-3 times during an encounter, Imp. Shadowform will be better.

  14. #34

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    So has anyone got any thoughts about threat? I keep hearing that tanks will generate boatloads of threat - so does this mean maybe reducing the points in Shadow Afinity?

    Seem to be a whole lot of mana reduction/gain/tweak talents in there - be interesting to see what will be needed in the final shakedown.

  15. #35
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    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    - so does this mean maybe reducing the points in Shadow Afinity?
    They won't be doing THAT much

    Oh and, give Improved Shadowform for Brutallus and Dispelling on Felmyst !!

    So far I've finding it extremly usefull on 3/6 bosses in Sunwell Usefull enough to put points in it.

  16. #36

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails

    So focussed mind will save over 26% base mana in the 3 minute cooldown of Inner focus. &#160;This, to my mind, makes it a far stronger talent point. &#160;On top of that, it scales with haste, of which there will be a lot come WotLK, where Inner focus does not.
    Inner focus gives you also 25% chance to crit, and Improved Spirit Tap is both mana and dmg. where IF>FM, if MB crits that is
    Add Kil'Jaeden to spell-pushback fights list with shietloads of annoying raid dmg
    "There's a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that they have it."
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  17. #37

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    i think about not speccing range, since i got an increase of 6 yards with mindflay glyph, compared to pre 3.0

  18. #38

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by plspirit
    i think about not speccing range, since i got an increase of 6 yards with mindflay glyph, compared to pre 3.0
    Really?

    The MF glyph adds 10 yards to the range of MF, making it 30 yards.
    Shadow reach increases the range of shadow spells by 20%.

    20% of 30 yards is 6 yards.

    MF with glyph and Shadow Reach is 36 yards, an overall gain of 12 yards.

    If you don't take Shadow Reach but get the glyph you increase 1 spell 6 yards over its Live incarnation, but reduce all your other spells by 6 yards.
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    Now this is just blatant trolling, at least before you had the credibility of maybe being stupid.
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  19. #39

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Myzrael
    Inner focus gives you also 25% chance to crit, and Improved Spirit Tap is both mana and dmg. where IF>FM, if MB crits that is
    No, sorry, I would rather have a reliable mana reduction than be hoping IF will produce a crit to regen mana.

    Along with the lack of scaling with haste on IF (and we will all have a bunch of haste even in naxx it seems) and the fact that my figures were a low estimate and still showed 7% base mana saving......

    I would say focussed mind is far more reliable and powerful a mana saving than IF.

  20. #40

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    For the ones that state improved shadow form is a PvP only talent are prety much clueless on raiding.

    Push back protection is extremly valuable , nothing worse then flaying whit pushback! the dps increase will be worth the 2 talent points.

    LvL 70 build

    At lvl 80 i will lose dispersion , useless talent wen backup whit meditaion ...

    LvL 80 build

    Whit the replenish changes the shadow priest will earn the raid spots by minor group healing and DPS.... no longer we are needed for the regen/debuffing but are considered a dps class so a 51 point talent for a 6 second wank is not impressive at all.

    http://eonguild.powerguild.net/forum.htm

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