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  1. #41

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by artan


    At lvl 80 i will lose dispersion , useless talent wen backup whit meditaion ...

    LvL 80 build
    You can go 66% chance for both Shadow Weaving and Pain & Suffering.... 66% is enough, and with the SWD changes (near removing it from our arsenal, the minor loss of SWD personal damage mitigation is minimal). You can grab dispursion then.. yeah you might not use it, but it certainly has its times. Hell if anything, oh shit! I got Dark Barrage or Felrage! /cast Dispursion

  2. #42

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails
    To be honest if you did not re shackle 1.5 secs before bolts, then you failed.

    Also shield did not necessarily absord all teh bolts to cast shackle. I agree though. No good reason not to take it.

    <3
    Did you ever have a shackle resisted? Did you ever see a mob come out 5 seconds after your last shackle? No? Then you obviously haven't had to do much shackling.

    But I have to agree, with the latest changes to spell pushback, it is not as tragic as it used to be. On the current live version I could finish one spell at best during the shadow bolts (so I was mainly using instants and wanding), with the changes, I lose 1 second maximum per spell. Still I'm quite happy, there is something a shadow priest can do against pushback, it was about time imo

  3. #43

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails
    I would say focussed mind is far more reliable and powerful a mana saving than IF.
    I agree. Your math seemed plausible to me and I did the math on all the spells at each point for Focused Mind. Here's a good example math wise:

    With Base Mana at 3300
    MB = 17% base mana or 561 mana in this case. So you save 561 mana from using Inner Focus with this, once every 3 minutes with a higher chance to crit.

    With points in Focused Mind:
    MB cost at 5/10/15% reductions = 533/505/477

    You save 28 mana per cast on just Mind Blast with only 1 point. Imp Mind Blast 5/5 and lets assume 0 haste so you could theoretically cast this spell once every 7 seconds. If you were only casting Mind Blast for the next 3 minutes (180 seconds) you could cast it 180/7 = 25.7 times so we'll call it 25. To see how mana we saved we do the math, 28 x 25 = 700. Last time I checked 700 > 561 =/

    Lets check Mind Flay assuming the same stats.
    MF = 9% base mana or 297 mana in this case.
    MF cost at 5/10/15% reductions = 282/267/253

    While you only save 15 mana with just 1 point, we will also have many more casts. Mind Flay with 0 haste is a 3 second channel with no cooldown so we can cast it 60 times in the 3 minutes that Inner Focus would be on cooldown (180/3). 15 x 60 = 900. Still more than the 561.

    Now I know what you're all thinking, "I don't cast just Mind Blast or just Mind Flay." Pick a number between 700 and 900 since you mix it up. Keep it in mind these are only totals with 1 point in Focused Mind. Here's a list of the full savings on each:

    Assuming base mana is 3300
    MB mana saving over 3 minutes:
    1/3 Focused Mind ~700
    2/3 Focused Mind ~1400
    3/3 Focused Mind ~2100

    MF mana saving over 3 minutes:
    1/3 Focused Mind ~900
    2/3 Focused Mind ~1800
    3/3 Focused Mind ~2700

    When it comes down to it I'd rather go 3/3 Focused Mind and not even bother with Inner Focus.


    EDIT: Thanks to derevka for pointing out that I was being silly with base mana. Edited base mana to 3300 (roughly the base mana of a level 80 Priest). The percentage saved is still the same obviously but the numbers are now accurate.

  4. #44

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by artan
    For the ones that state improved shadow form is a PvP only talent are prety much clueless on raiding.

    Push back protection is extremly valuable , nothing worse then flaying whit pushback! the dps increase will be worth the 2 talent points.

    LvL 70 build
    you will need that 3 mins shadowfiend, trust me
    "There's a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that they have it."
    - William Wallace

  5. #45

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by noz3r0
    With Base Mana at 10k:
    MB = 17% base mana or 1700 mana in this case. So you save 1700 mana from using Inner Focus with this, once every 3 minutes with a higher chance to crit.
    Noz3r0, your base mana assumptions are CRAZILY high. I think you might be concfusing base mana with total mana. At level 80, base mana will be a around 3.3k depending on race, but just assume 3.3k if you want to guess.

    So your mana assumptions are a bit off.

  6. #46

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Myzrael
    you will need that 3 mins shadowfiend, trust me
    care to explain why? I tested in beta and i had no mana problems at all using that spec ... if you wear FSW then yes you will have mana problems but at sunwell lvl you wont (at least i didnt)
    http://eonguild.powerguild.net/forum.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Healingprick
    They should add an Diminish on Return on QQ's

  7. #47

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by derevka
    Noz3r0, your base mana assumptions are CRAZILY high. I think you might be concfusing base mana with total mana. At level 80, base mana will be a around 3.3k depending on race, but just assume 3.3k if you want to guess.

    So your mana assumptions are a bit off.
    ... I feel silly and yes I did confuse them (base mana = mana when your naked =[ ). Time for me to rework the math with 3300 as base mana. Either way it should still show the same % savings but I'll conjure up the real numbers and edit the post.

    Edit - Changed the numbers in the original post I made about the numbers. Check it now and it seems more fallible.

  8. #48

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Sorry for the double post to start off with. 2 questions.

    Can Devouring Plague crit?
    Would you link Inner Focus with Devouring Plague instead of MB seeing that it costs more mana?

  9. #49

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=b

    Here is my thought.

    2/3 in Shadow weaving is enough. Atm i play with 3/5 in it and it suits fine.
    2/3 in Pain and suffering is enough since with new MF mechanics u will MF even more than u do now.
    Shadow reach is always good.
    2 mins less on Shadow fiend is always good.
    Took 1 point in imp VE because it helps abit,and i dont think sp will have threat probs anymore because of SF changes and tanks getting more threat.For aoe heavy encounters u should consider switching 1 point from imp SF to imp VE.

    Sounds reasonable?

  10. #50

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorfpriest

    Here is my thought.

    2/3 in Shadow weaving is enough. Atm i play with 3/5 in it and it suits fine.
    2/3 in Pain and suffering is enough since with new MF mechanics u will MF even more than u do now.
    I said it earlier - But I will repeat it.

    In an encounter with heavy movement/silence/immunity/phase change and assuming Dispersion might be used, there may well be periods of 6-10 seconds without casting. On those occasions you are liable to lose a stack of one or both of those. I will not risk it personally unless I hit serious mana issues with regularity.

    With 66% in P&S a whole flay will fail to renew in.... 1/27 cases - for the probability buffs amongst you. About 4% chance. Too high for me, sorry.




  11. #51

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    How about taking 3/5 improved MB and pick up everything else for a 13/0/58 spec?


  12. #52

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Zo
    How about taking 3/5 improved MB and pick up everything else for a 13/0/58 spec?
    That is a DPS loss, and therefore is sub-ideal. The real argument going through the whole thread is how many mana regen talents do we need, and where do we take the points from.

  13. #53

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntrails
    That is a DPS loss, and therefore is sub-ideal. The real argument going through the whole thread is how many mana regen talents do we need, and where do we take the points from.
    Need all of the mana regen talents as things stand now. At least that sounds like the general concensus. Which of course really sucks for level 70 because they are not attainable, but with these specs we are talking level 80 of course. You are probably right that even with the buffs to mindflay losing a 1 sec reduction to the cooldown of MB is not DPS accepatable.

  14. #54

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Well if you double check my math, I think it soundly backs up Ntrails theory of Focused Mind > Inner Focus. I don't think I would put a point there. The spec that I'm looking at would be something like this:

    13/0/58

    That's only if 2/3 in Pain and Suffering and Shadow Weaving is enough, which I believe it will be. I get Imp Shadow Form and Imp VE while still getting 3/3 Focused Mind for maximum mana usage.

  15. #55

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Not to mention, the snare removing with fade would be incredible win for following bosses:

    Shade of Aran, Lady Vashj, Hyjal Summit

    ... I'm sure I'm forgetting a few as well.
    ok. i can see shade of aran (dispellable though so not a HUGE difference.) but what snare with vashj... when you get the tainted core thrown to you? [haha "Guys, MY KEYBOARD JUST BROKE ON ME!"] or entangle which SHOULD only be on the melee dps (within 15 yards of her.)
    Which snares in hyjal? Rage has the frost nova but that is also dispellable so again, not a HUGE difference. I guess the demons that spawn on the azgalor fight have a snare, but again... you shouldnt be anywhere near them, unless you got doomed.

  16. #56

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...12325150301251

    Blizz made it easy. This is what to spec as a raider 99.9% of the time. Improved shadowform is really for pvp. If you're workning on a boss where it's that useful, pick it up for the night or something.

  17. #57

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    i pick improved shadowform for its pushback reduce, not for imp fade, when raiding

  18. #58

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    I guess it should be mine PVE tree
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...12325152301351

    I know that i skip shadow afinity - threat reduction, but i think threat wont be a problem in Wotlk.
    But mana will. So i assume i should focus more on mana than on threat.

    Cherio

  19. #59

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    I'd go with http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...12325150301351

    And threat will be of issue.

  20. #60
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,274

    Re: (Shadow) Build 9014 - Lets talk talent PvE builds

    Right, I tested out my guild in SWP (even it's lolmode).

    Improved Shadowform was HUUUUUUGE WIN on Eredar Twins, M'uru and Kil'jaeden.
    I'll never raid without that, ever!.

    Now talking threat, I think lowering points in Shadow Affinity would be doable, 1-2 points shouldn't be a problem , atleast for level 70.

    I think removing 1 point from Focused Mind, and allocate it in Inner Fire would be worth it as well.

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