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  1. #41

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    The thing I don't think you non-healers realize is that fifteen seconds of no healing = dead players. There's really no way around that. It's just not very useful for holy anymore. I'm okay with this because I recognize now that it's really not FOR holy paladins, but trying to argue that this is really good for holy is stupid.

    Any healer at all would far rather have this be something you use maybe once or twice in a boss fight, on a 5 minute cooldown, than have full mana and not be able to heal for a quarter of that fight. Also sure, there are fights that require you to move. Very few of them require you to be moving for 15 seconds, during which time no heals are necessary. I can see it now:

    "Okay guys, I need to get my mana back. Going to go get some chips or something."

    Fifteen seconds later:

    "Hell yeah, I've got mana, and chips! Hey, how come everyone's dead?"

    In case you don't believe me, go run into an instance sometime, engage a boss of the appropriate level/difficulty for your gear, and tell your healer to look at a stopwatch and not heal for fifteen seconds. See how long you last.

  2. #42
    Mechagnome
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    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoan
    Why not make the mana regen back to 50% and channeled? The first set up for it sucked, and it is WAAAAY better than what it is now. Currently it has gone from nearly useless, to completely useless.

    Paladin - "Oh shit! This is a hard fight I am burning heals like no other. Crap! I am almost out of mana, I better use my sorry ass excuse for evocation since Blizzard has decided to no take the proper move to help us and take illumination back to 100%."

    *click Divine Plea* (plea to make the piece of crap useful)

    Warrior - "WTH, my health is dropping super fast, it is almost like I am missing a healer!"

    That being said, the only way I run out of mana is if I am having to throw out Holy Lights like candy on All Hallow's Eve, and if that is happening I can't afford to stop healing for 15 seconds straight, and for 25% of my mana? Even with the 13k mana I have now which is a crap ton of mana from what I have seen at 70, that is just over 3k, which gives me 4 holy lights? If I call now I get the spell that gives me +25% healing at the cost of 100% of my crit rate too?

    Nothing against the OP on this one, but making spells require a glyphs to make them do what it probably should have in the first place is just a craptastic cop out. Honestly I have no idea what the hell the glyphs are for those spells, but just the way you worded it makes it sound like the spell as a whole should be one way, but you are screwed unless you glyph it. Inscriptions are going to be just like Alchemy and Enchanting, an annoying tradeskill that is going to be required to do anything in a raid, which means the economy is going to revolve around them, and the cost is going to go through the roof. I play MMOs to kill big dragons, I do not play MMOs to spend 2 hours a day running around farming to get enough money to have a chance to go kill a big dragon.
    1) YOU ARE STILL LOOKING AT THIS AS A HOLY PALADIN ABILITY, CAN YOU NOT READ THAT THIS IS FOR PROT AND RET PALADINS THAT RUN OUT OF MANA. OMG HAVE 10 PEOPLE BEFORE NOT SAID HOLY PALADINS DO NOT HAVE OOM ISSUES. THEY ARE THE MOST MANA EFFICENT HEALRS, ESPECIALLY WITH 5 POINTS IN RET THAT SI 5% MORE CRIT.

    2) Look at this game people, gear has been consolodated, Take a shadow priest and a holy priest, in the same gear they have = plus healing. so they can now heal EXACTLY the same devoid of skill. So it has not come down to the part of the game where we have 80 lvls, 70 talent points, gems, enchants, and GLYPHS THAT HELP DISTINGUISH THE ROLE OF THE CHARACTER. IF you think glyphs are just somthing like gems and ecnahts they are way more. How you glyph for your 3 majors will effect your game play and performace. Because you only get 3 major ones, and there are so many per tree to choose from. Lets just hope they dont cookie cutter.

  3. #43
    Mechagnome
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    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Quote Originally Posted by breath
    dude in many raid situations you are required to move, moving means no heal, but you can use this, plus only 1 min CD...so it means you can actually use this a lot more, first of all you can use this more than 1 time, second you can use this in more situations cause its instant and doesnt require to stand still...

    no you cant heal with it on you, but sry that would make it really overpowered....
    If you channel a spell then you can not move or cast a heal.

    Think about this people. Bliz is intentinally making it where you can move around, and cast everything but healing spells. If this was a skill meant for holy paladins would they really make somthing that reduced healing 100%.

    I swear, any paladin that trys to argue for it to be channels, etc in order to argue for it to be used by holy is dumb.

    Because either blizzard was in upside down world when they made this for holy, or its not meant for holy. Which do you think it is?

    Secondly, every healing friend I told about this spell immedily said its useless for healers. You cant stop healing to CHANNEL, or stop healing bc its worthless to in raids. ESpecially when you are healing the main tank.

    OMG, open your eyes and ears people.

  4. #44

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evereghalo

    Secondly, every healing friend I told about this spell immedily said its useless for healers. You cant stop healing to CHANNEL, or stop healing bc its worthless to in raids. ESpecially when you are healing the main tank.
    Hi, im not ur friend but I'm a healer and I will tell you something.

    I Got this nice Trinket off Muru which will get you some mana Back with an evocation like use effect. Many people said its useless because you have to channel it.
    But guess what, I found a possibility to use it at every single boss fight in Sunwell except brutallus.

    Kj after shadowspikes before raiddamage inc
    Muru phase switch
    Twins after first twin down
    Felmyst air phase after skellis down when you dont have to move(and you can move with plea) or after last breath
    Kalecgos when you are on dragon side (he hits like a baby so dont worry about tank he can bandage up or sth)

    You see, there is always a possibility to use it.

  5. #45

  6. #46
    Mechagnome
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    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    yea, as is. So you have just proven the point of the ret and prot paladins. that you can use it as holy as is. Bc you can always click off the buff or marco to cancel it.

    Also if you are talking about the glimmering naru silver, its 8 seconds not 15seconds. Also thats in transition which if its a buff like evocate and everything else then click it off in those 8 seconds. for 11.9 to 12.75 percent of ur mana.

    Problem solved holy. CLICK it OFF

    GG thanks for the evidence.

  7. #47

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferarro
    Ppl should really stop to listen to whine threads, there are really too many of those made by ppl that cant understand the difference between balanced and overpowered.

    Holy paladins are fine, they are just different from before, if you will heal like you used to in tbc you will bad heal.
    But thats for everyone, every single class (maybe dps classes a bit less), got a pretty new way of playing it.

    Im a prot paladin, and i can say that using the old tanking style = useless not only in wotlk, but even in 3.0, this is the same for holy paladins.

    Going back to the main point:
    Comparing a single spell to a spell of another class is stupid, useless and lead nowhere.
    Each spell in a class is the result of all his talents and other spells/skills/abilities.
    Said this comparing Evocation to Divine plea its useless.
    Mana regen isnt the big thing you will find in a mage tree and so they have to solve the issue someway.
    In the holy tree we get talents for mana regen, clearcasting and stuff, that really dont make us needing a lot more. Plus if you simply cant go oom healing will switch to just press 1 button as fast as you can, while the mana management part is really an important and funny part.

    Said this, KEEP ALWAYS IN MIND that atm this spell isnt minded toward mana regen for holy paladins (imho) and the 100% less healing effect its a proof. It's an answer to the big downtime prot paladins have in tbc while tanking in istances(overall when they are overgeared, when they just dont get enough mana back from healings). Its not even a spell minded for retri, cause really as long as you put wisdom on something u wont have any problem of mana.

    So the main point in this spell is clear the huge downtime for prot paladin, the same as bloodrage and enrage (even if you cant compare those so much cause of the rage/mana difference).

    Then, this spell can be also a lot useful for retri and holy paladins, but become more situational. Not always usable/useful, but still usable.

    So why do they put it in the holy category? Omg are you crazy? Isnt avengin wrath in the holy category too and till 3.0 it only increased dmg so doesnt mean its a spell you will use only for holy purpose.....come on open you mind and stop listening to all the whine...



  8. #48

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Paladins have every right to complain about this spell, though they should try and do it in a constructive way and it should be done on the Blizz beta forums, cause I really don't want to see the current iteration of divine plea go live.
    Now, paladins are a hybrid class with 3 talent trees, as such all abilities should be made with with that in mind to some extent.

    Divine plea doesn't fit, its great for 2 specs but it really penalizes holy paladins a lot, and from reading to the blue posts, divine plea was, ironically enough, designed to help holy paladins.
    And I have every right to complain about this ability because no other class get a new ability none the less, that is so one sided, so much of a penalty to one spec.
    Lets take druids for example, they get savage roar, and nourish, will a resto druid be penalized for using savage roar if he goes into cat form? No he won't, he just won't get the benefit as much as a feral, but he still has the choice if he wants?
    Will a feral druid use nourish? Why not I say, he can cast it along with rejuv, change to cat form and continue soloing, and he won't be penalized for it, he just won't get the full benefit out of it since he isn't a healer but he still has the choice of using it.

    Divine plea is just plain bad, its just as bad as the first version was, as far as holy paladin are concerned.
    The only other new ability I saw that penalized a class to some extent was Kill shot from hunters, it used to knock them back and in arenas it would be like saying "hey I'm stunned come over here and destroy me", and in PVE it was bad since you couldn't put it into a rotation, now it was changed so it doesn't cause knock back and its far better this way.

    Now, I play retri for as long as I have had my char, I hate holy with a passion, after all hard time I've had.
    Despite this however, I am posting on behalf of the holy paladins, because of fairness, cause, no matter what I don't find divine plea fair, I don't find it useful and I certainly don't find it practical for holy paladins, the ability is too one sided, even if you cancel it early you still don't get full benefit from it, for a new ability it just plain sucks right now.
    It might be better if they make it a 5 min CD that regens 25% of your maximum mana over 10 seconds passive.
    It would need to return very little and have a big CD to justify it returning 25% mana not channeled and without any penalty, but I know one thing for sure, it would be vastly more helpful for holy paladins, and it would still be useful for prot and retri paladins.

  9. #49

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    there is no need for Holy paladins to whine about the divine plea nerf
    as they will propably not use it anyway, because there is mana regen stuff enough.

    gear: mp5/ crit rating
    spells: blessing of wisdom, JoW, and JoTW
    consumables: manapots, flasks and food

    assistance:SP, shamans, and hunters dunno how good it is though

    the amount of mana isnt of any issue here since all spells are % on base mana

    i think retri will use divine plea more often than holy paladins

  10. #50

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    What's a holy pally? ???


  11. #51

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson
    And before more stupid comments roll in, anyone who thinks that 15 seconds of being useless as a healer is no big deal is absolutely retarded.
    As a priest on most bosses and in many phases I stand around doing nothing except for refreshing Renew and PoM. Combine a 10-15 second daudle with Clearcast and Inner Focus and you can get half a mana bar back. This is why priests, good priests, seldom run out of mana save for when they have to spam CoH.


  12. #52

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Admuntour
    Paladins have every right to complain about this spell, though they should try and do it in a constructive way and it should be done on the Blizz beta forums, cause I really don't want to see the current iteration of divine plea go live.
    Now, paladins are a hybrid class with 3 talent trees, as such all abilities should be made with with that in mind to some extent.

    Divine plea doesn't fit, its great for 2 specs but it really penalizes holy paladins a lot, and from reading to the blue posts, divine plea was, ironically enough, designed to help holy paladins.
    And I have every right to complain about this ability because no other class get a new ability none the less, that is so one sided, so much of a penalty to one spec.
    Lets take druids for example, they get savage roar, and nourish, will a resto druid be penalized for using savage roar if he goes into cat form? No he won't, he just won't get the benefit as much as a feral, but he still has the choice if he wants?
    Will a feral druid use nourish? Why not I say, he can cast it along with rejuv, change to cat form and continue soloing, and he won't be penalized for it, he just won't get the full benefit out of it since he isn't a healer but he still has the choice of using it.
    you are completely wrong...
    every spell has an aim and its doesnt mean that it usefull for each spec
    taking your example, druids enrage is useless while being resto, doesnt mean that its useless at all, its just situational

    if you have to take into account every tree when making a spec you just will end up with a class capable of doing anything in any spec.

    some spells are usefull in some spec some arent, take retribution aura, its uselss for a holy paladin, its wonder for a prot paladin, its soso for a retri
    take light, its useless again for a holy paladin, cause he doesnt hit the mob, its good for prot and retri

    any spell has a different aim, and its doesnt mean it has to be made for each aspect of the hybrid class

    divine plea is still usable by any holy paladins and get the same buff/debuff of prot and retri, still the debuff is bad for only a tree

    looking in your way they should remove the attack speed penalty from divine shield cause it not a big deal for holy paladin, while it is for retri and prot

  13. #53
    Khody
    Guest

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evereghalo
    1) YOU ARE STILL LOOKING AT THIS AS A HOLY PALADIN ABILITY, CAN YOU NOT READ THAT THIS IS FOR PROT AND RET PALADINS THAT RUN OUT OF MANA. OMG HAVE 10 PEOPLE BEFORE NOT SAID HOLY PALADINS DO NOT HAVE OOM ISSUES. THEY ARE THE MOST MANA EFFICENT HEALRS, ESPECIALLY WITH 5 POINTS IN RET THAT SI 5% MORE CRIT.

    2) Look at this game people, gear has been consolodated, Take a shadow priest and a holy priest, in the same gear they have = plus healing. so they can now heal EXACTLY the same devoid of skill. So it has not come down to the part of the game where we have 80 lvls, 70 talent points, gems, enchants, and GLYPHS THAT HELP DISTINGUISH THE ROLE OF THE CHARACTER. IF you think glyphs are just somthing like gems and ecnahts they are way more. How you glyph for your 3 majors will effect your game play and performace. Because you only get 3 major ones, and there are so many per tree to choose from. Lets just hope they dont cookie cutter.
    71 talent points actually.

  14. #54

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoru
    Figure in the mana you're getting back by going out of the FSR, it's going to be more then just 25% of total mana.
    I dont understand this part right heres. If it gives you 25% total

    how would you get more than 25% total?
    Armour is no protection against the blessed tools of the righteous

  15. #55

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    He's talking about the Five Second Rule, or basically, your "while not casting" mana regen. It's a largely irrelevant point, because:

    a) who cares if you're regening mana if your heal assignment(s) dies while you sit there like a lump for 15 seconds, and
    b) we don't have an incredible amount of mana regen while not casting as it is, because of the lack of spirit gear/talents that paladins have.

    Comments like this are typical of people who either don't play a healer at all, or don't play a paladin healer. Please try to restrain yourselves from commenting on shit you really don't know anything about.

  16. #56

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    The irony in this divine plea nerf is that if it happened to druids, they wouldn't be phased by it. They could just fully HoT up their partner and not cast a heal spell for 15 seconds without a care in the world. Pallies, however, are the one class that get kicked in the ass by this nerf, there's no way a class with 0 hots can just leave their partner for 15 seconds.

    Horrible.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bonechewer&n=Crispybacon

  17. #57

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    It's why a Holy Paladin will -NEVER- be viable.

    Every healer can just do it better (barring our shaman brethren)

  18. #58

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Mana is the least of the Holy paladins worries... granted, I did give up going holy during Season 2 when I was wearing PvE gear just so I could have ~barely~ enough mana to survive a drain team.

    In PvE, you will almost always have an SP, Mana Tide, or even a Ret Pally around to help with your mana, or you can just fall back on the tried and true method of potting like a crack addict.

    Our problem in PvP, aside from itemization, was the fact that our two major heals are incredibly easy to interrupt.


  19. #59

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    Maybe if it was on a longer cooldown (2 mins sounds good) with only a 50% healing reduction, maybe if could be a bit better. I mean, the only way of regenerating mana is by either critting or drinking a pot. To crit, you must be casting. MP5 is ok, but you need lots to be effective. Also, you ever seen an innervate on a paladin, i remember getting 20-25% of my mana back, and that is out of the FSR while a priest getting it can get back to full or almost while spamming CoH, i've seen it.

  20. #60

    Re: Divine Plea... whaa?

    so pretty much every other class that heals gets thier mana back in some way that they have to sacrifice a little bit but get alot back, pally's have to sacrifice thier entire ability to heal, hell skip beacon of ight and tallent this in there with no healing debuff, make it actually use full.

    druids get inervate, shamans get mana tide totem, priests get their cool little pet thing, all of wich allow the healer to regain mana while healing. Also for boomkins and shadow priests their abaility can be used as well to give them mana back. So where these healers can use thier mana regen spell in different situations, a holy pally has to suffer cuz blizzard decided to put it's head up it's ass and make it so pally healing doesn;t get an actuall benifit from what was suposed to be a really good spell, way to go blizzard, your no fucking over ret any more, your fucking over healing.

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