WoW, Paladins complain more than any other class.

[Evereghalo]

Yea, I said it.

I am a prot paladin on Crushridge, and so I have a right to.

It honestly blows my mind when I see all this compaling about one change, like it destroys the entire class. Like are yalls wangs that small you get intimidated and start crying and stopping your feet like a 3yr old. I mean seriously.

When they change holy omg we suck from everyone.

When ret gets changed omg we are being nurfed, it is happening again. (Paranoid Much) Those Kalagoes youtube vids say the bulk of it.

I can I throw this out there?

Do you all not understand that paladins like druids are the most complex class in the game when it comes to both internal and external balance.

We have Holy PvP, Holy PvE, Ret PvE, Ret PvP, Prot, and Shockadin. (I wanted to say Prot PvP but thats all theory for now)

So 1 change to buff one of these aspects changes every single one of them. And ya know from which ever group you are you all want to be competitive and EQUAL. wow complete and uttle equality what the hell does that sound like?

Truth: Orginal judgement of the wise was way OP, in both pvp and pve aspects.

Turht: Ret paladins wanted in raids, well they got it they are the new mana battery they have taken the place of shadow priests, because they are getting the buff in dps. You can not be the rogue in a grp.

Truth: No class that can heal, should also be top dps 90percent of the time. (there are those rare fights)

Truth: We all want to be viable, so they are doing that which means making abilites that cater to one spec and are dumb to be used by the others. You can not have all new abilities good for everyone. How is that possible, how do you do that with out making it OP or having it so futile it is useless.

Truth: BLIZZARD wants paladins to use the judgement system. Plain and simple, sorry I hate it as much as learnign paladins new stats are Str and Stm not Int, just didnt feel right but I got over it.

Observation: For the most part all changes made will still keep all specs viable, You wont be top heals, you wont be top dps, you might not get the 2200 arena raiding. Some skill has to play the part. I saw the skilled people take the change to Divine plea, and come up with ways for it to work. And when they do all those cry babies will copy them.

Truth/Observation:

With Ret getting the dps buff to raids,

With Prot getting single target threat and sustainable mana,

Holy I am sorry your time to shine is fading as fast as beacon of light when people read what to does.

I personally would not get it now as Holy except for in 5 and 10mans, in 25mans its not uber. esp with new wrath of air totem (hopefully it stacks) (also you get 5percent crit in ret tree, are you not greatfull for that change?)

Beacon of Light: Great for 5mans, before a 5man make a macro for beacon, put in the tank's name, leave it on ur bars. Oh shit someone got agro, push the macro and heal the person while the tank tries to aoe threat gen, which if ur not a prot pally isnt gonna be instant.

I would like to see it where it aoe heals upto 5 people in melee range for some percentage each, or a divission of the total healed to the beacon. (and make it where the beacon gets that threat, omg prot paladins would make a bot holy pally just for the threat gen)

But anyway, guys stop freaking out, and give it time, and lets see what other changes they make. Because only those with no lives will start 10mans by the end of november. And it will not be till after finals and near christmas break will competion start and all the probles will need to be fixed.

[vegastommy]

Lololol.

Well there is some truth to your post perhaps but let's wait for the flames cause they're coming.

[ahau]

But anyway, guys stop freaking out, and give it time, and lets see what other changes they make. Because only those with no lives will start 10mans by the end of november. And it will not be till after finals and near christmas break will competion start and all the probles will need to be fixed.

I disagree.
Our whole comunity where giving Blizzard data about that our HP, our Avoidance, our Block compared to a warrior is about 2-3% weaker. A lot of us wher QQing but also a big part of the protadins just said "Lets wait, they said the mitigationtests haven't passed yet, they have done great in BC where we started as Clowns and now at a point where we nearly can tank any Raidencounter". I counted myself to this group.
But the last post of GC realy hits me hard. Paladins are fine? What about the statement "all tank classes should be equal viable"? How about scaling? Yeah, it was allways my dream to be the able to tank the easiest 10 instance as good as any of the other tank classes only in bringing in more skill then them.

They have should give the Crit-block to the Block-Tanks and probably alot people would be just ... happy.

The problem is, as long as one other class is better in ALL aspects of tanking then the protection paladin, even if this gap is not that big. Progress will be made with the other class. Why rely on luck (hopefully that boss don't hit that hard that AD will work) and skill (compare tankrotation of warrior and paladin) if you can have the easy way?

I'm also an Protection Paladin and a Warrior. The Paladin is way more fun but the Warrior may be the first char i will play to 80.

[Stoan]

I disagree.
Our whole comunity where giving Blizzard data about that our HP, our Avoidance, our Block compared to a warrior is about 2-3% weaker. A lot of us wher QQing but also a big part of the protadins just said "Lets wait, they said the mitigationtests haven't passed yet, they have done great in BC where we started as Clowns and now at a point where we nearly can tank any Raidencounter". I counted myself to this group.
But the last post of GC realy hits me hard. Paladins are fine? What about the statement "all tank classes should be equal viable"? How about scaling? Yeah, it was allways my dream to be the able to tank the easiest 10 instance as good as any of the other tank classes only in bringing in more skill then them.

They have should give the Crit-block to the Block-Tanks and probably alot people would be just ... happy.

The problem is, as long as one other class is better in ALL aspects of tanking then the protection paladin, even if this gap is not that big. Progress will be made with the other class. Why rely on luck (hopefully that boss don't hit that hard that AD will work) and skill (compare tankrotation of warrior and paladin) if you can have the easy way?

I'm also an Protection Paladin and a Warrior. The Paladin is way more fun but the Warrior may be the first char i will play to 80.

This. We have people and people and more people giving feedback about what we think of the paladin changes, no a numbers point of view, not a I WANT IT I WANT IT! We try to be constructive, useful, and most of the time fair. Blizzard says they listen, maybe... but they listen as well as I do when I am playing the game and my girlfriend is trying to talk to me about the last person kicked off America's Next Top Model.

Our point = "Paladins have a huge gap in damage taken vs. a warrior, it is over 11% (someone did the calculations), we need something to bridge the gap for us to be even"

What is seems like Blizzard hears = "Paladins, blah blah blah vs warrior, even" Well I guess we fixed paladins

I am not saying I am not super happy with the changes and re-envisioning of the paladin class setup as a whole, but we still have a bunch of problems, and by the looks of the last few beta builds, there isn't going to be much done about it to fix it.

[tjanson]

What the OP needs to understand, and it's obvious that you don't, is that paladins across the board didn't fare too terribly well in any aspect of the game during TBC. Mount Hyjal made prot viable for a while(think about it guys, they designed an entire instance's trash waves for us, we were that underrepresented as prot) but in BT and Sunwell, prot really isn't all that great compared to bear or warrior tanks. Unless you needed someone to hold down AOE threat on a LOT of mobs, you just didn't think of a paladin, not when you had other options.

Holy did really really well in Tier 4 and Tier 5 content. After that, you had to be incredibly good to keep your raid spot, because shamans, priests, and even sometimes druids were much better suited to the AOE damage heavy fights that BT and Sunwell had. It's not that you couldn't do it, but it became MUCH harder and more easily handled by another class, and Blizzard even stated that they specifically designed the fights that way because they thought Holy was too powerful. Well, they might have overdone it a bit.

The real problem with ret, is that unless the player is very well geared, and has a group with some sort of shaman in it(<3 enhance shammies) you're going to be lucky to outdps the tanks on some fights. Obviously, they fixed this, but it was a long time coming.

In arenas, both ret and holy suffered from some serious setbacks. Holy has no real instant cast healing spells(holy shock lol) making us easy to shut down, and ret's lack of a healing/slowing debuff(the only melee class w/o one, except for feral, who have it even harder than we do) makes it hard to kill anything on live.

Trying to compare us with druids, saying that a change made to one tree affects us like it does them is just plain BS. Take a look at the resto tree sometime. It's a tangled mess of shapeshifting cost reductions, physical dps increases(!) and regen buffs. It's not nearly as clear cut as the paladin trees are. You'll take a few points here and there, sure, but you'll never see a paladin go deep ret for say... pursuit of justice... as a healer. Not if he's any good, he won't. Some of the best resto druids in pvp actually go deep into Balance. Most go into feral for Feral Charge. There's no parallel for that for paladins.

And this right here:

You wont be top heals, you wont be top dps, you might not get the 2200 arena raiding.

This proves you have no clue. Blizzard has stated that one of the design goals of WotLK is to make all specs viable, to be able to fill your role(dps, tank, heal) as well as any other class. If you dps, you should be right up there with the top dpsers. If you heal, you should be right up there with the top healers. There should be no fight that makes you say, "man, I sure wish we didn't have this protnub as our MT, a warrior could do it SO much better." So yes, a class that can potentially heal SHOULD be among the tops in dps, if the player is good enough.

[Evereghalo]

As for prot, I am happy with the single target threat gen. And personally as long as I can keep the threat up there with the other tanks avoidance is in the back of my mind. Skilled healers can keep us up, but its threat gen that is my number one concern.

Plus we are still the number 1 aoe tanks, no matter what anyone says. With the glyph its awesome a spell that procs vengence on 3 targets and ret aura thats buffed and sacles, come on. Druids, DK and Warriors can take on 3-5 mobs. We can take on 100.

As for mitigation I want to see those numbers.

6percent all damage from RF,
3percent all damge from BoSanc
6percent spell from Guarded by the light.

What are we missing?

Spell warding got a buff, Righteous fury stayed the same, and we got a boost of 3 percent.

This is 15%spell mitigation damage, which IMO is nice, add to that 2% from the Meta gem, and another 2% as an armorsmith (and even if they are unique equiped then its at least 2percent)

So that is 17percent spell, as prot pally,
and 9percent physical. Isnt that on par with warriors and maybe even death knights? (I am noob to DK stats as they are bound to change and the number of DK tanks will be low)

The only advantage that warriors is that furry ability that give them ap based on armor or somthing. IDK.

I am either nieve, or blind to what is scaring all these prot paladins.

I mean when I saw the drop of SoMartyr, and SoVengence I was upset then. And I saw no one say anything.

[ahau]

Plus we are still the number 1 aoe tanks, no matter what anyone says. With the glyph its awesome a spell that procs vengence on 3 targets and ret aura thats buffed and sacles, come on. Druids, DK and Warriors can take on 3-5 mobs. We can take on 100.

Ok, it seems you missunderstood me, i tried to be objective and not to flame. But it's hard
So, your numbers are not right. Druids, DK and Warriors can take easily up to 7 mobs. Thats good, espacially for warriors (without skill) cause they missed an easy skill (like thunderclap) to tank more than 3 or 4 mobs (hm, i know warriors which even had problems with 2 mobs and healaggro, but lets not talk about such noobs). 7 Mobs is GREAT. I don't want to tank 100 Mobs!! Why? I can't beleave Blizz will design any raidinstanze where you need to tank that much mobs. And for Heroicinstances and normal ones it's probably wayne which tankclass you will take, they all should get the job done. Its about tanking high-end raid encounters. And for me it is a big difference to get 10% more damage than my warriorfriend. I don't want the warrior get 10% more damage. That wouldn't be fair either. I can live with 1% more damage take, no problem. But it's about the scaling and the sum of little parts which are affecting EH that much that a Raidleader would prefer a warrior over a paladin. It would be better if he could say: " Lets have an rotation" or "lets have the more expierienced tank get the progressjob done" ...
you understand my point of view? Equal doesn't mean with more buffs and more healing we can do the same. Btw.. You can believe me that thread is not a problem in wotlk, for non of the tanking classes

As for mitigation I want to see those numbers.

just an example...
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/5/10535...itigation.html

there are more on maintankadin.failsafedesign.com

[yomyom]

I think the idea behind Ghostcrawlers comment of "every class/spec thinks they do the worst dps" applies here.

I think OP is right the paladins complain more, I wouldn't say of all classes because I know warriors can give them a run for the money.

What I put it down to, is not that their class sucks (not that it does), and not that they are the worst, but that things have changed. Have a look at it, the classes that have changed the most have a lot of bitching.

On the warrior forums the tree of which the mechanics have changed the most is fury. They now have to deal with 3.6 speed weps rather than 2.6, with rage mechanics and the type of attacks we have that changes a lot, also the fury tree is the one getting bitched about a lot. Personally I would say (having PTR tested this) arms isn't as good as fury right now, in pvp and pve, but because little has changed to arms not much bitching has been done.


And of course you all should know, pallys have prob changed the most this coming patch.

[Deleted]

To the OP:

Holy paladins are still not viable in arena, that's the truth. And that's what most of us holy paladins are so upset about; we were lead to think that Blizzard would actually give us some needed viability and survivability in arena. But we just lost divine plea, infusion of the light got nerfed..and our bubble isn't a life saver anymore either since other classes can dispell it or just blast through it. It seems we are worse off than ever before, actually.

Pve - wise..well, we are actually slightly better off than before. We don't have to buff anyone with blessing of light, we can instead give them something more useful. That means our healing just got better and the target of our buffs also feels happier.

And I just tried prot paladin yesterday. They seem excellent now. I have nothing to complain about prot. It's just that I simply loved being holy paladin and I didn't bother gathering ret gear because I was hoping wotlk will make us fare better in arenas. It gets boring to play pve all the time, you know, and of course I was hoping that my beloved class and spec would actually be useful in both pvp and pve. I just am really disheartened by the changes to our pvp viability (or the lack of changes) and I don't feel like playing my holy anymore..

[Jenks3]

3 things.

1) 1, OP has a point, though only paladins aren't alone. Every class right now thinks its worse than every other class in its niche. Think I'm wrong? Look it up. There are long threads in all 4 healing classes stating they are all the worst. With math to prove it! Right now, DKs feel they are the weakest tanks, so do pallys, so do warriors. Druids would, but we just got blued telling us we arent.

2) Once the game goes live, and everyone has to just deal with it. People will finally realize that their class doesn't suck.

3) Holy paladins not viable in arena? It must be like hunter, no for the faint of skill. If I remember correctly, like 2/5 top teams for 2v2 had a holy pally healer, 2 druid, and 1 disc priest. Totally not viable at all. They just aren't easy wins anymore like they were in Season 1/2. Get over it, and get some practice in. Paladins still rip it up in arena.

[Deleted]

3) Holy paladins not viable in arena? It must be like hunter, no for the faint of skill. If I remember correctly, like 2/5 top teams for 2v2 had a holy pally healer, 2 druid, and 1 disc priest. Totally not viable at all. They just aren't easy wins anymore like they were in Season 1/2. Get over it, and get some practice in. Paladins still rip it up in arena.

http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/team/...rogue/all/all/

On the first page, looking at 2v2 teams, I count 4 paladins overall. (Didn't even bother trying to count how many druids there were!) That's pretty low, won't you agree? And I already said, in wotlk our bubble won't anymore save our arses, we can still get killed. Beacon Of Light _would_ be useful in pvp if almost every other class didn't have a way to remove our buffs. So basically we got nothing new to help us fare in pvp, whereas more or less every other class/spec did. Even prot paladins do better than before in pvp, too.

[Adamson]

Paladins have been arguably the worst at every aspect of the game since launch. We have every right to be pissed.

The only thing we've ever shined at is single target healing. And even that diminished in TBC.

QQ is justified.

[Xephan]

Paladins have been arguably the worst at every aspect of the game since launch. We have every right to be pissed.

The only thing we've ever shined at is single target healing. And even that diminished in TBC.

QQ is justified.

Go roll a shaman.

Then ask Koraa if he thinks your class is okay.

[Adamson]

Go roll a shaman.

Then ask Koraa if he thinks your class is okay.

Shamans are amazing in pve. And you're not as worse off in pvp as we are. There's more resto shamans in the higher brackets than holy paladins last time i checked.

Elemental/resto/enhance are all amazing in pve. And provide utility.

Prot pallies are only necessary for aoe tanking and possibly RoS phase 3.
Holy pallies ca easily be replaced by 2 druids who can also heal the raid.
Ret pallies are super gear-dependant and require a good player to do well with.

[Taznak]

http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/team/...rogue/all/all/

On the first page, looking at 2v2 teams, I count 4 paladins overall.

Now, take a look at this:
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/team/...rogue/all/all/

Seeing any more Holy paladins now?

[Xephan]

I'm just saying, the EU Shaman forums had an 18 page long post asking Koraa to resign.

From both a shaman and paladin standpoint, I think we both do a lot of crying, but shamans take it to another level when they start threatening the jobs of Blizzard employees ;P

[AariKanes]

Unfortunately this just seems to keep happening. I wish I could understand the justification for completely boning holy. I'm still going to play mine, I put way too much work into my character to give her up because of this, it's just disheartening, I was really having fun on the PTR.

In all honesty I can understand the Infusion of Light nerf, I had it up almost constantly, and that's an instant 5-6k heal, 8-9k if you crit (at 70), which is pretty crazy especially in PvP. I just think they went around nerfing it the wrong way. I think it should have a cooldown of 10-20 seconds. Long enough to not be spamming it all over the place, but short enough we can pop it and save someone's butt in arena.

Also: every other class has MP5 on their PvP gear, AND druids and priests get a bonus from spirit (yes I know pvp gear doesn't have spirit, but they still get a bit extra from what spirit they have). Paladins have the 30~ or so from the necklace and two rings. We needed a mana regen spell that doesn't destroy our healing... you know, like every other healing class. :

[clownhair]

Now, take a look at this:
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/team/...rogue/all/all/

Seeing any more Holy paladins now?

Paladins fair considerably better in 5v5 than they do in 2v2, the caveat is its harder to get games in much less find 4 other good players. I will trade druids my 5v5 abilities for there 2v2 abilities all day long.

As far as holy pallys come 3.0 I expect they will fair better than previously in pve and pvp. In arenas the 6 second holy shocks is gonna be a pretty big deal, and even nerfed infusion of light is still good, just not awesome. With the haste i have now + lights graces and the judgement haste it should still be about a .7 second cast.

[Munk]

Eve,

You know what, Paladins sure do cry a lot and yes it gets annoying and tiresome but the reason for the tears is USUALLY *not always* justified.

I think across the board you will find the vast majority of paladins are...1)Excited about the ret changes and eager to earn their raid spots and start getting a little more respect in pvp. 2)Excited and happy about the prot changes to increase their damage output and increase single target threat which was only a little below where it needed to be to begin with.

What most paladins are still on the fence for is how our Holy tree is shaping up. Up until the QD badge loot vendor opened up protadins lacked the gear to be competitive tanks until they were fully decked in t6 due to improper itemization for paladin threat mechanics. T4 wasnt high enough iLevel across the board to deck yourself out in, t5 made some odd choices which only benefited paladins for trash tanking and actually hurt us against bosses and because of itemization we were significantly harder to be both uncrittable and uncrushable while maintaining decent threat/stam. - But I digress as thats all ancient history, blizzard "fixed" it.

Holy was the Paladin bread and butter tree in BC. Of all our specs it was the easiest to play, easiest to gear for, and the most successful earning us early MT healer spots and a reputation as a good healer. So much so that a lot of raids came to rely on our heavy ST heals and bring us along even though their were more flexible choices that could handle the job just as well.

Because paladins using downranked FoL's with a good coeff, and tons of crit were literally never running out of mana (like priests in end-game BC) they violated the core of our Holy tree and broke illumination. Next patch they changed our down rank BoL coef's then changed the downrank coef, and left us a fucking bloody shit of a mess.

Paladins could do what they did before, just much less successfully, easily putting druids and priests on the same playing field in terms of single target healing ability, but never gave paladins passive mana REGEN (not just the ability to conserve) or the ability to heal in adverse circumstances. In order for us to continuallly heal a target we must be anchored in one spot spamming easily interrupted or push-backed spells.

So here's the deal. Holy pally's have a right to complain. They are perfectly justified. Illumination was never given back to us, and rolling BoL into Devo aura really doesnt give us the raw +healing numbers that an actual blessling like BoL did. Blizzard seemed to base all our holy mechanics around hs+ instant hl to make us absolutely dominate the single target healing niche. Problem is, like illumination and downranking they broke that too. Maybe it was too much but considering it was (at least in my eyes) the single best thing they were giving us and the big reason most holy paladins would get raid spots for mt healing.

If you really want to level the playing field, dont penalize paladins for wearing plate and itemize our gear to also include spirit, then like for other classes allow paladins to get passive regen as well as another way to boost our +healing with imp spirit.

You know what, I hate reading 4 dozen threads a day of paladins crying about this and that. Im sure blizzard hates it too, so the simple answer is to fix the one tree thats still grossly broken and we will be looking very good for WotLK's release.

[Munk]

holy palas thought they would get unlimited mana in wotlk but they dont so they QQ

Unending mana was originally a paladin trademark. Paladins are slowly getting absorbed into the murk of other classes with very little to make them stand out as a healer class. Not every paladin WANTS to take up a big 2 hander in Wrath and start smashing faces.

Personally I love that I will be welcomed by various guilds when I bring out my 2 hander, but that doesnt mean I cant see the frustration and anger my holy brothers are feeling right now. Blizzard tends to tease paladins alot, just when we think we get something that can really make us unique, different and make our heals good enough to keep our spot they gut the heart of it saying its too powerful and the change is in the name of balance and were left scratching our heads thinking WTF?