Thread: Holy/Prot/Ret

  1. #1

    Holy/Prot/Ret

    This is just a few things on my mind with the current state of paladins and their talent trees.

    1) Holy - While I agree that pallies are behind other healing class as of right now, they are not so far behind that there needs to be 85746 posts about how you're rerolling ret, seriously, lets get some constructive criticism out in the open, and if Blizz doesnt listen, dont post that you're leaving for Warhammer, EQ2, etc. No one cares, blizz certainly isnt gonna miss your 15 dollars if they dont have to listen to your QQ posts on the forums anymore. For those Holy pallies who really love holy and want to stick with it, we may be underpowered in AoE or Raid healing situations compared to other healers, but we can do something they can not, we still put out the single highest HPS on a single target with the more longevity than any of the other healers while doing so(Phase 3 RoS comes to mind) we are fine to be that kind of utility since we're better at it than anyone else. Maybe this goes against what Blizz stated, and maybe we aren't equal like we should be, but so long as we play WoW, Holy pallies will be loved for their buffs, their utility, and being the best MT healers.

    2) Prot - Prot is my first love, I care more about this tree than either of the other two, and Blizz is still falling short with Prot like they are for Holy, granted its closer to where it belongs than Holy is, but its far from being well rounded, somethings are just plain broken or pointless. The changes to str and block value are huge, no one appreciates how much more pallies are gonna be blocking compared to the other 3 tanking classes, including warriors who have shields as well, having 100%+ avoidance at all times means roughly 30% more blocks than warriors and leaving druids and DKs far behind. Yes, pallies have lower % of mitigation than warriors, but all our blocking we'll be doing is constantly being ignored. We will survive longer than our paper doll numbers suggest, our mitigation is fine. What's not fine is our base health which should have been changed long ago, not bandaged with combat expertise's buff to stamina, that was a mistake that needs to be undone, we shouldnt have to spend valuable talent points to be only slightly worse off than warriors, this is absurd. The recent nerf to stam cost me around 800hp in conjunction with the gear nerf, meanwhile warriors further the gap from me, and I'm in 5/8 T6 and equivalent BT epics. The change to Seal of Righteousness has made it subpar for tanking, Seal of Vengence is so much more damage right now, that anyone who hasnt switched over yet, will the moment 3.0 drops. Biggest problem with that is SoV is absolutely horrible with reckoning, it offers absolutely nothing, thus alienating the talent and making it unviable, its overdue for a change or replacement. There is an over emphasis on mana cost in pally trees, making any kind of Off spec functionality difficult for any pally. Prot and Ret are incable of supplying any real level of healing, their base mana pool wont sustain any kind of healing stress, to suggest they can Off Heal is wrong, dont even suggest it.

    3) Ret - This spec is overdue for some change, making it function like a Shadow Priest and replenish raid mana, giving it comparible dps and giving some minor AoE healing at and around melee range were all very nice steps in making Ret not only viable, but desirable in raids, not to mention the personal dps boost and the raid dps boost they now offer. But admittedly they are a bit TOO bursty even for a burst dps class, their overall dps numbers are not too high, but being able to deliver huge bursts every 6-10 secs, and then go back to white damage and SoC or SotM, then back to burst, then back to waiting, fix the burst issue and ret pallies are fine, they need no nerfs.

  2. #2

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic
    1) Holy - While I agree that pallies are behind other healing class as of right now, they are not so far behind that there needs to be 85746 posts about how you're rerolling ret, seriously, lets get some constructive criticism out in the open, and if Blizz doesnt listen, dont post that you're leaving for Warhammer, EQ2, etc. No one cares, blizz certainly isnt gonna miss your 15 dollars if they dont have to listen to your QQ posts on the forums anymore. For those Holy pallies who really love holy and want to stick with it, we may be underpowered in AoE or Raid healing situations compared to other healers, but we can do something they can not, we still put out the single highest HPS on a single target with the more longevity than any of the other healers while doing so(Phase 3 RoS comes to mind) we are fine to be that kind of utility since we're better at it than anyone else. Maybe this goes against what Blizz stated, and maybe we aren't equal like we should be, but so long as we play WoW, Holy pallies will be loved for their buffs, their utility, and being the best MT healers.
    Pvp sucks with holy. 'Nuff said.

    Didn't bother reading the rest. I like how prot is now, and I darn well am going to keep my protadin as protadin.

    Ret? Well, since holy sucks in pvp and I am sick tired of my holy getting so easily nuked in arena I am repsceccing ret. They do a whole lot better both pve and pvp wise. Again, nuff said.
    - Hand: n., A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody's pocket. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

  3. #3

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by GayGirlie
    Pvp sucks with holy. 'Nuff said.
    I agree arena as a holy pally requires ridiculous levels of skill, even then breaking 2100 is near impossible with out the best gear and a great partner.

  4. #4

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Honestly I have never clicked any of the Holy QQ threads, but Blizz kind of irks me on this one. They say all healers should have an AoE heal.

    Druids got Wild Growth
    Shamans have Chain Heal
    Priests got Circle of Heal

    Paladin, "I got a rock..."

  5. #5

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Paladin, "I got a rock..."
    But everybody wants a rock to wind a piece of string around.

    On topic, we've finally gotten some moves in the right direction, but Holy still seems to be a tree full of garbage in some places and bloat in others. I made a huge post on the WoW boards about what I'd like to see done/changed, but no one read it there, so no point in rehashing here. I guess at this point all we can do is wait for the first 3 months after the release of Wrath and see if A. they finally get what we're talking about or B. just nerf the crap out of everyone else so we don't look so shabby anymore.

  6. #6

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    can i get a tldr version please
    80 Druid, 84 Priest, 85 Death Knight, 85 Mage, 76 Shaman, 85 Warrior, 70 Warlock, 70 Paladin

  7. #7

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Honestly, Blizzard is far too reluctant to give Holy an AoE heal. "It goes against Paladin play style..." Yeah yeah. But you can't do class homoginization and then say this specific class needs to stay "unique." (Read fail)

  8. #8
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    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic
    This is just a few things on my mind with the current state of paladins and their talent trees.


    2) Prot - Prot is my first love, I care more about this tree than either of the other two, and Blizz is still falling short with Prot like they are for Holy, granted its closer to where it belongs than Holy is, but its far from being well rounded, somethings are just plain broken or pointless. The changes to str and block value are huge, no one appreciates how much more pallies are gonna be blocking compared to the other 3 tanking classes, including warriors who have shields as well, having 100%+ avoidance at all times means roughly 30% more blocks than warriors and leaving druids and DKs far behind. Yes, pallies have lower % of mitigation than warriors, but all our blocking we'll be doing is constantly being ignored. We will survive longer than our paper doll numbers suggest, our mitigation is fine. What's not fine is our base health which should have been changed long ago, not bandaged with combat expertise's buff to stamina, that was a mistake that needs to be undone, we shouldnt have to spend valuable talent points to be only slightly worse off than warriors, this is absurd. The recent nerf to stam cost me around 800hp in conjunction with the gear nerf, meanwhile warriors further the gap from me, and I'm in 5/8 T6 and equivalent BT epics. The change to Seal of Righteousness has made it subpar for tanking, Seal of Vengence is so much more damage right now, that anyone who hasnt switched over yet, will the moment 3.0 drops. Biggest problem with that is SoV is absolutely horrible with reckoning, it offers absolutely nothing, thus alienating the talent and making it unviable, its overdue for a change or replacement. There is an over emphasis on mana cost in pally trees, making any kind of Off spec functionality difficult for any pally. Prot and Ret are incable of supplying any real level of healing, their base mana pool wont sustain any kind of healing stress, to suggest they can Off Heal is wrong, dont even suggest it.
    If you are still using seal of righteousness all the way into BT, you need your head examined. Only on trash mobs in Hyjal do you use righteous bc they die to fast.

    Also reckoning has always been a NO NO for raiding, its all about 1 handed weapon specialization. When you hit uncrushable it become effectivly useless, and even in Hyjal if it does proc it does not proc seals. (even if I am wrong about that and it does it makes vengence a better seal)

    Quit QQing, and pick up mining then, which is almost a required talent for tanks aside from feral druids. If you go and look at health modifiers in prot for both paladins have it better than warriors,

    Honestly the difference between warriors and paladins is almost nothing. We got buffed very nicely in single target threat and aoe tanking to the point where your choice in main tank is the person with the most skill and best gear.

    And that is where the distinction should be.

    ONLY the top 5 guilds on each of the servers will min max to the point that it is at now.

  9. #9

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Evereghalo
    If you are still using seal of righteousness all the way into BT, you need your head examined. Only on trash mobs in Hyjal do you use righteous bc they die to fast.

    Also reckoning has always been a NO NO for raiding, its all about 1 handed weapon specialization. When you hit uncrushable it become effectivly useless, and even in Hyjal if it does proc it does not proc seals. (even if I am wrong about that and it does it makes vengence a better seal)

    Quit QQing, and pick up mining then, which is almost a required talent for tanks aside from feral druids. If you go and look at health modifiers in prot for both paladins have it better than warriors,

    Honestly the difference between warriors and paladins is almost nothing. We got buffed very nicely in single target threat and aoe tanking to the point where your choice in main tank is the person with the most skill and best gear.

    And that is where the distinction should be.

    ONLY the top 5 guilds on each of the servers will min max to the point that it is at now.
    Please go troll somewhere else, i made relevant points about where paladins are currently, and why we are not as "equal" to other tanks as blizz said we should be. If the only suggestion you offer is dropping one of my professions (which warriors can do as well) to make the game more level, then you are missing the point.

    Our mitigation is not the concern, broken talents that work inversely with gear, lower health numbers due to lack of paladin base health, and having 3 of our new talents be mana reduction talents just so they could change our gear to streamline with other plate tanks, these are legitimate concerns. I give a damn about whether or not guilds are going to min-max and only if i make it to the top 5% or w/e will i be excluded, we were told we would be equal, i stated a few of my biggest concerns about why we currently are not.

  10. #10

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic
    Ret - This spec is overdue for some change, making it function like a Shadow Priest and replenish raid mana, giving it comparible dps and giving some minor AoE healing at and around melee range were all very nice steps in making Ret not only viable, but desirable in raids, not to mention the personal dps boost and the raid dps boost they now offer. But admittedly they are a bit TOO bursty even for a burst dps class, their overall dps numbers are not too high, but being able to deliver huge bursts every 6-10 secs, and then go back to white damage and SoC or SotM, then back to burst, then back to waiting, fix the burst issue and ret pallies are fine, they need no nerfs.
    Thank you. Agree that the bursts need to be fixed a bit - maybe even HoJ. But other than that, ret pallys are not as good as some people think they are. If they nerf rets they will just become crap again.


    I am not that good I know...

  11. #11
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    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluerelic
    Please go troll somewhere else, i made relevant points about where paladins are currently, and why we are not as "equal" to other tanks as blizz said we should be. If the only suggestion you offer is dropping one of my professions (which warriors can do as well) to make the game more level, then you are missing the point.

    Our mitigation is not the concern, broken talents that work inversely with gear, lower health numbers due to lack of paladin base health, and having 3 of our new talents be mana reduction talents just so they could change our gear to streamline with other plate tanks, these are legitimate concerns. I give a damn about whether or not guilds are going to min-max and only if i make it to the top 5% or w/e will i be excluded, we were told we would be equal, i stated a few of my biggest concerns about why we currently are not.
    You go troll somewhere else noob. All people do is complain when prot paladins are good where they are now.

    We are equal, all you could complain about is health. PROVE IT, Druids get the best coefficient yes, but we have more stam Abilities than Warriors. Second we have a buff that does make us almost required for 25mans, so yes you will have a raid spot.

    Lastly, they are close they are not the same. IF you are in the top 5% of guilds that will still max/min consider 2 things.

    Get into one that is open to a paladin tanks, otherwise you are screwed no matter what because well there are some that are slightly better at different things.

    And did you think the rest of us do not care? I mean if we were on par in every other way with the other tanks then we would not be unique, I would rather keep my class' unique style then have a cookie cutter warrior build where everything that said bloodlust, or revenge is replaced with divine or righteous.

  12. #12

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Evereghalo
    You go troll somewhere else noob. All people do is complain when prot paladins are good where they are now.

    We are equal, all you could complain about is health. PROVE IT, Druids get the best coefficient yes, but we have more stam Abilities than Warriors. Second we have a buff that does make us almost required for 25mans, so yes you will have a raid spot.

    Lastly, they are close they are not the same. IF you are in the top 5% of guilds that will still max/min consider 2 things.

    Get into one that is open to a paladin tanks, otherwise you are screwed no matter what because well there are some that are slightly better at different things.

    And did you think the rest of us do not care? I mean if we were on par in every other way with the other tanks then we would not be unique, I would rather keep my class' unique style then have a cookie cutter warrior build where everything that said bloodlust, or revenge is replaced with divine or righteous.
    I agree with you for the most part, when they gave us SotR, i thought it was seriously a joke, and i dont want a bunch of warrior abilities with a holy descriptor. But being better than a warrior at aoe is one thing, but only being good for aoe, which is the case in late BT and SWP currently, is stupid. I dont mind being an aoe tank, but considering aoe fights make up all of about 5% of the game, being a buff bot for the other 95% of the content is complete and utter bullshit. There are few complaints about paladins who tank T4/T5 content, but once you push T6 content, warriors are better in virtually every single way, we become an aoe tank, and hopefully you have some healing gear because both your mitigation and threat are worse than a warrior. Yes, if a guild likes you they'll let you tank, i've personally tanked every boss in BT including illidan (but not P2 RoS, obviously), but that doesnt change the fact that currently a warrior does it better, they leveled the playing field for TPS and mitigation, but in exchange they nerfed our stam, i assume this was to limit how scaling at 80 works, but if blizz just adjusted our base health and equalized our stam talents, there would be no scaling concerns, we wouldnt start out way worse than them in hopes of being on par with late content. We might even get some more nifty stuff in our talent tree where that 6% stam used to be. This seems like an easy fix, but instead it seems like a lot of our talents are intended just to sort of catch up to warriors.

  13. #13

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Moar Pew Pew
    Paladin, "I got a rock..."
    At least you can beat scissorz with that rock

  14. #14
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    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Evereghalo
    If you are still using seal of righteousness all the way into BT, you need your head examined. Only on trash mobs in Hyjal do you use righteous bc they die to fast.

    Also reckoning has always been a NO NO for raiding, its all about 1 handed weapon specialization. When you hit uncrushable it become effectivly useless, and even in Hyjal if it does proc it does not proc seals. (even if I am wrong about that and it does it makes vengence a better seal)

    Quit QQing, and pick up mining then, which is almost a required talent for tanks aside from feral druids. If you go and look at health modifiers in prot for both paladins have it better than warriors,

    Honestly the difference between warriors and paladins is almost nothing. We got buffed very nicely in single target threat and aoe tanking to the point where your choice in main tank is the person with the most skill and best gear.

    And that is where the distinction should be.

    ONLY the top 5 guilds on each of the servers will min max to the point that it is at now.
    1) What if he's horde and doesn't HAVE SoV?
    -1b) Saying someone needs their head examining because of the above is foolish and arrogant

    2) Reckoning works on blocks as well as hits come 3.0, or at least it did in an earlier build

    3) Read the patch notes from earlier builds and assume they aren't the same faction as you before making such derogatory remarks.
    [...]

  15. #15

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    If you are still using seal of righteousness all the way into BT, you need your head examined. Only on trash mobs in Hyjal do you use righteous bc they die to fast.

    Also reckoning has always been a NO NO for raiding, its all about 1 handed weapon specialization. When you hit uncrushable it become effectivly useless, and even in Hyjal if it does proc it does not proc seals. (even if I am wrong about that and it does it makes vengence a better seal)
    SoV has never been the hands down winner of threat in TBC due to the proc rate and resist rate, especially on bosses. Reckoning lost popularity when we got combat expertise in the 2.3 patch, but reckoning works well with SoR and not SoV. Prior to 2.3 Reckoning was part of the cookie cutter build, and you could get it with 1hand spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    1) What if he's horde and doesn't HAVE SoV?
    -1b) Saying someone needs their head examining because of the above is foolish and arrogant

    2) Reckoning works on blocks as well as hits come 3.0, or at least it did in an earlier build

    3) Read the patch notes from earlier builds and assume they aren't the same faction as you before making such derogatory remarks.
    Reckoning has always proc'd off any hit where you take damage, which included blocks. You won't be blocking full hits in raids, so mostly the reckoning procs from blocks is inconsequential.

  16. #16
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    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    1) What if he's horde and doesn't HAVE SoV?
    -1b) Saying someone needs their head examining because of the above is foolish and arrogant

    2) Reckoning works on blocks as well as hits come 3.0, or at least it did in an earlier build

    3) Read the patch notes from earlier builds and assume they aren't the same faction as you before making such derogatory remarks.
    1) Blood is the best tanking seal, especially if you are mana starved because you are not taking damage. And the ticks from vengeance are beaten by blood. Blood is more consistent holy damage, because you take a threat loss of vengeance stacks are lost. So even if he was HORDE, BLOOD IS STILL BETTER.

    2) Who cares, you were not paying attention. If reckoning does proc off blocks (which I am pretty sure it does not) it still does not proc seals, which currently is the only reason to hit the mob with your weapon. And even if it did, blood is still better.

    Lastly, no tanking build never went over 3/5 reckoning because it was no longer worth the points.

    3) You Fail, Moron.

    lol

  17. #17

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Evereghalo
    1) Blood is the best tanking seal, especially if you are mana starved because you are not taking damage. And the ticks from vengeance are beaten by blood. Blood is more consistent holy damage, because you take a threat loss of vengeance stacks are lost. So even if he was HORDE, BLOOD IS STILL BETTER.

    2) Who cares, you were not paying attention. If reckoning does proc off blocks (which I am pretty sure it does not) it still does not proc seals, which currently is the only reason to hit the mob with your weapon. And even if it did, blood is still better.

    Lastly, no tanking build never went over 3/5 reckoning because it was no longer worth the points.

    3) You Fail, Moron.

    lol
    Go crawl back under your rock and do some actual research, Seal of the Martyr/Blood is shit damage for tanking on the ptr, vengence is far superior atm. And SoR is much better for sustainable threat on live then vengence is, vengence had a million different ways of refusing to stick to a mob, melee hit, spell hit, RNG and no procs, that seal was situational at best, i pull 1200-1600 TPS with SoR on live. Stop trolling, stop flaming, do some research, get some numbers or go kill yourself so people will stop grouping you up with good pallies and giving them a bad name.

  18. #18

    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Evereghalo
    1) Blood is the best tanking seal, especially if you are mana starved because you are not taking damage. And the ticks from vengeance are beaten by blood. Blood is more consistent holy damage, because you take a threat loss of vengeance stacks are lost. So even if he was HORDE, BLOOD IS STILL BETTER.

    2) Who cares, you were not paying attention. If reckoning does proc off blocks (which I am pretty sure it does not) it still does not proc seals, which currently is the only reason to hit the mob with your weapon. And even if it did, blood is still better.

    Lastly, no tanking build never went over 3/5 reckoning because it was no longer worth the points.

    3) You Fail, Moron.

    lol
    Uh, no Seal of Blood was only maybe better if you were in full warrior gear with no spell damage. Once you actually got some spell damage then you could obliterate any threat you were doing with Seal of Blood by using SoR.

    No, reckoning was often maxed out pre 2.3. Very few people took the old weapon expertise talent, but after 2.3 when it got renamed combat expertise and got 10% more stamina (not to mention the expertise as opposed to the old weapon skill) it became mandatory and folks usually took points from reckoning to get it. Still folks do sometimes have 3/5 reckoning as that gives you the most uptime per talent point spent, but you would still get more up time if you went to 5.

  19. #19
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    Re: Holy/Prot/Ret

    Quote Originally Posted by Evereghalo
    1) Blood is the best tanking seal, especially if you are mana starved because you are not taking damage. And the ticks from vengeance are beaten by blood. Blood is more consistent holy damage, because you take a threat loss of vengeance stacks are lost. So even if he was HORDE, BLOOD IS STILL BETTER.

    2) Who cares, you were not paying attention. If reckoning does proc off blocks (which I am pretty sure it does not) it still does not proc seals, which currently is the only reason to hit the mob with your weapon. And even if it did, blood is still better.

    Lastly, no tanking build never went over 3/5 reckoning because it was no longer worth the points.

    3) You Fail, Moron.

    lol
    Blood is a tanking seal? Since when? 35% of weapon damage as holy damage? That's some hardcore threat CONSIDERING WE USE 41.4 DPS CASTER WEAPONS. Idiot.

    It was stated in an earlier ptr/beta build post, right here on mmo-champion, that reckoning can proc from blocks, and the talent calc for that build also stated it. Once again, very foolish.

    Calling me a moron, and saying that i fail when you clearly haven't done your own research, leads me to the conclusion of; Hypocrit.
    [...]

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