moonkin looking for some thoughts about bloat and resto tree

[Chizzlechest]

I'm just looking to see if anyone else has the same idea of looking at a mandatory 13 points spent in the resto tree. As far as I see it I think these are a must have as moonkin:
2/2 in Imp MoW
5/5 in Furor
3/3 in Natural Shapeshifter
2/2 in Master Shapeshifter
and
1/1 in Omen of Clarity

And with these points spent in Resto, it only leaves 58 points to spend in balance at lv 80. even with the new 3 point Earth and Moon I dont have any points for "fun stuff". heres the build i have right now:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000
Looking for some input/thoughts on this please. Some of my thoughts in my build here are to now take Eclipse (because it looks as if Blizz is really pushing this so we take it now), still not taking Imp FF (plan to have a SP), and I dont see Celestial Focus as optional (3% is a must imo for dps).
The only thing I can think of to go get "fun stuff" (like starfall, typhoon, brambles, or even nature's splendor) is to abandon the thought of Eclipse again, but again I really think Blizz is trying to make it a must.

[Cerus]

Moonfury is also proposed to go to 3pts. Bloat doesn't mean having to spec down into another tree, pretty much every other class has to. There is plenty of room for "fun" talents. Take a loot at the talent build below (btw, Intensity is 100x better than Dreamstate)

http://www.war-tools.com/t58407.html...1231205003312r

The build has Typhoon and Treants with focus on single target and AoE dps. You could go one step further, tweak some points and take Frenzy for extra oomph during AoE. The point of Eclipse is to give some people options. Most don't like proc watching, some (like GC herself) find the talent fun. The point is, with the change you now have options.

and....GC "As an epilogue, here are our feelings on bloat. The problem with the Balance tree was that druids had to spend nearly all their points just on pure damage. It's hard to justify giving up damage for utility, PvP or fun talents in a raid scenario. Ideally you should be trading those talents off against each other ,not against your damage (or healing or mitigation)."


"Bloat (in our dictionary) does not mean there are more talents you want than you can afford. That's a *good* thing. If there were a bunch of talents you'd never ever get, now *that* would be a problem. As a contrast, we don't think Feral is bloated -- or rather in this case we bloated it on purpose so that you couldn't be the best cat in the world and the best bear in the world with the same spec."

[jur]

Intensity and Omen of Clarity are just talents to lengthen your mana pool. The Balance tree already has many talents to do this, so Int. and OoC should only be picked up if absolutly needed. Looking at Master Shapeshifter, it is a total investment of 5 talent points for a 4% increased damage. Though this 4% is a lot, the talents are not worthwhile if OoC and Intensity are not being taken as well.

So a well geared Boomkin, who has plenty of mana efficiency, will likely not want to invest so many points into the Resto tree. Those points are better left to Balance talents, for most gear levels I'm guessin.

[loder]

Horrible build. Do a simple search before creating another useless, worthless thread next time. It was already established that MF + SF SF SF SF SF SF ... spam is the most dps.

[Chizzlechest]

/sigh loder...very constructive. post your build if you are so godly; that or just dont bother posting worthless opinions. and the post was never about cast sequence...but thanks anyways.

thank you Cerus and jur. I didnt know Moonfury was proposed to 3 points...havent read blues in like a week. just saw the Earth Moon blue today. the 2 points make it easy to get some aoe, so 2 fun things.

my main point of the thread was to see that the points in resto were standard.

And depending on how buffs are going to work out in WoLK dreamstate and intensity are pretty much interchangable. so i could pop 3 outta dreamstate and into intenstiy np, didnt know which would work out better in WoLK, or if either are really needed with raid mana regen in WoLK.

[Cerus]

/sigh loder...very constructive. post your build if you are so godly; that or just dont bother posting worthless opinions. and the post was never about cast sequence...but thanks anyways.

thank you Cerus and jur. I didnt know Moonfury was proposed to 3 points...havent read blues in like a week. just saw the Earth Moon blue today. the 2 points make it easy to get some aoe, so 2 fun things.

my main point of the thread was to see that the points in resto were standard.

And depending on how buffs are going to work out in WoLK dreamstate and intensity are pretty much interchangable. so i could pop 3 outta dreamstate and into intenstiy np, didnt know which would work out better in WoLK, or if either are really needed with raid mana regen in WoLK.

On Live as Balance I would always take both Intensity and DS. But the number crunchers have shown that do to several changes, Intensity far outweighs DS. If you absolutely need them both they work great together and Furor naturally goes along with DS. Eventually as your gear level rises you can drop DS and get something else for extra damage "oomph".

I found as I was leveling that with Furor and mana resto from crits I did fine on mana without DS and 1 or 2pts in intensity. If I wanted to go ballistic using Starfall, Trees, Typhoon etc every chance I got to AoE a bunch of mobs down I needed to max Intensity. DS is just so lackluster now and adds very little MP5 that I usually try to skip it. Eventually you may get to a point where you don't need either but OOC is just too good to pass up. Might as well put those points into more mana regen if you're going to go for OOC...at least for usefulness in a raiding environment.

To jur: OOC=free casts, lots of them. Working with spells is something Druids have wanted for a long time and now we've got it. Intensity scales very well, there's no reason not to take it. With these proposed changes, a Balance druid can get all the PvE talents he/she needs and still have OOC, Intensity, Master Shapeshifter etc.

[loder]

/sigh loder...very constructive. post your build if you are so godly; that or just dont bother posting worthless opinions. and the post was never about cast sequence...but thanks anyways.

You took worthless talents for dps because the cast sequence doesn't include wrath or is. Now shoo, and search.

[Deleted]

You took worthless talents for dps because the cast sequence doesn't include wrath or is. Now shoo, and search.

Show me how when and with what breakpoints IS is not worth casting. I can guarantee you that at the start of T7 instances (and probably at least for their whole length), a glyphed IS will be worth the GCD.

[Eleena]

Show me how when and with what breakpoints IS is not worth casting. I can guarantee you that at the start of T7 instances (and probably at least for their whole length), a glyphed IS will be worth the GCD.

Doubt he will, because the new IS is worth casting, even without glyph but fully talented genesis, however fully talented genesis might not be advisable, for now this is the build I was planning to use at lvl 80 for raiding(im not in beta its from testing on ptr, i figured this would be best, so take it witha grain of salt. =P)

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=0EGbuiIsAdhVhoxZ0x

Depending on hit on gear balance of nature might be possible to drop.

[BuNNyRespawned]

Don't invest point in Dreamstate/Intensity.

Critting gives you enough mana, so don't waste talents on that

In the beta it gives me more than enough.

[Cerus]

Don't invest point in Dreamstate/Intensity.

Critting gives you enough mana, so don't waste talents on that

In the beta it gives me more than enough.

That all depends on gear and rotation. A few hundred mana every now and then may not be enough for some. Most Balance Druids are finding that Intensity is required under most circumstances. From mid level 70s to level 80's in LK Epics.

[MortuariusBC]

That all depends on gear and rotation. A few hundred mana every now and then may not be enough for some. Most Balance Druids are finding that Intensity is required under most circumstances. From mid level 70s to level 80's in LK Epics.

i havent had any mana issues without intensity in beta... where are you getting that info from? With other classes that provide mana intensity was wasted points for me

[jur]

Horrible build. Do a simple search before creating another useless, worthless thread next time. It was already established that MF + SF SF SF SF SF SF ... spam is the most dps.

No! Wrath is always going to be better dps than Starfire. Eclipse allows a Wrath spam to incorporate Starfires for a negligent dps gain, but a good dpm gain. Of Eclipse allows a Starfire spam to incorporate Wrath for a dps gain, and a negligible dpm loss. This is the truth, until they release more updates on Eclipse.

[Deleted]

No! Wrath is always going to be better dps than Starfire.

I'd really like to see numbers when i see such affirmations. Me, i'm a bit lazy (and some of our talent have had some bizarre implementation problems in the past, making the modelisation a bit of a pain (like Moonfury)) so i mostly trust my gut feeling, the impact of a few factors and so on (that and the EJ consensus).
For example, Wrath doesn't scale well with haste and crit (because the GCD can't go under 1s, so that you very roughly lose crit%*haste% dps time, which will be quite noticeable), is affected more by latency, and doesn't let you benefit from an eternal moonfire. I'd be very surprised if it was really better in raid situations than Starfire.

[defense007]

wrath:Causes 553 to 623 Nature damage 1.5sec(talent)
starfire:Causes 1028 to 1212 Arcane damage 3sec(talent)

2wrath=starfire(1.5sec wrath+1.5sec wrath=3sec starfire)
wrath:damage 1106 to 1246 Nature damage 3sec.
starfire:Causes 1028 to 1212 Arcane damage 3sec.+15%stun.but have big chance that your starfire interrupts.
crit starfire with vengeance.2056-2424.with wrath 2crits very problematically and damage only 1106-1246( vengeance)+553-623=
1659-1869
my idea
in pvp.cast wrath(if you fight in arena.bg. and nobody attack you .cast starfire)
raid boss attack with starfire

[Chizzlechest]

I dont know why this turned into cast sequence debate...but imo who cares which one you use as far as your talent build in concerned?
Is there talent points being spent on a talent that only wrath benefits from??? cause i dont see any. Celestial Focus is for Starfire and not Wrath, but i see taking that one anyhow just for the secondary haste it gives regardless of wrath spam or starfire spam. So why are people arguing about using wrath or starfire as far as build? Am i missing something?
And if you want to debate what is better as far as the "best" dps, it is always situational, so you cant debate it really. Maybe MF, SF, SF, SF...is the best overall dps if you get to stand in one little spot for an entire fight and cast over and over, but I dont see this happening, LOL. So a faster cast for wrath and IS being an instant cast that you dont even have to face the target to use make them both worth casting and using in many many cases to up your dps.
please stop the madness...=)

[Chizzlechest]

since this thread has brought em up I do question which is better Dreamstate or Intensity?
And then after that which one is needed, both, or neither?
But I would want to know this for a bunch of things...like for solo play, for aoe spam, for a boss fight longer than 5 mins, and maybe for pvp. And I dont think anyone has this info yet, but it would be nice to know some if anyone has some input.

and back to the wrath vs starfire thing one more time...(lol beating a dead horse here) I'm interested to know whether it would make sense to open the fight on a target with wrath to apply Earth and moon and then start the normal casting sequence after that? Wrath is a faster cast and would apply E&M faster than Starfire and then give more dps even for the start of a MF, SF, SF, SF...spam. Oh and then all the "only use MF and SF" people are really gonna freak out, lol, start with wrath...omg!

[seph]

I think the build below is what I would go with. I'm sure there are reasons for it to be different. I would choose Intensity over dreamstate becuase it scales largely with your spirit and somewhat with mp5. The reason I like that more is becuase IMP moonkin aura gives you a dmg bonus along with your spirit.

Will probably make adjustments when I actually get to try it. Can't wait!

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...03213305111231