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  1. #21

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by shockpally
    Yes, AW affects damage spells and Healing now. As far as Holy damage goes it seems they are missing out on Half of the modifiers for judgements. AP affects JoR to a lesser degree but it still is a modifier. Holy paladin only having one attribute that affect it and cuts their Damage in half even though they have more SP than Ret or Prot.
    The scaling should be tuned so that the same ipoints spent, untalented, on either AP or SP produces the same damage on Seals/Judgements. Period.

    What gives Prot/Ret the edge, if that were the case, would be the conversion talents that provide free SP.

  2. #22

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbimojo
    Seals/judgments all have an AP component in their scaling now, I believe.
    Holy grinding is pretty much a pain, and shouldn't be.
    I'd recommend waiting for BlizzCon, they apparently will be announcing how the dual spec idea will play out, there.
    i can holy grind faster than i can as ret in certain situtations. i can pull and kill 8-10 mobs at once as holy in about the time it takes me to kill 6-7 as ret 1 at a time. but its not always as easy to pull 8-10 at once as it is to run around and kill 1 by 1.
    Angrychaír - 80 Ret Pally
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khaz+Modan&n=Angrycha%C3%ADr
    Retribution: working as intended.

  3. #23

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    If your able to get 8-10 mobs i can do it too but there arnt that many places that have that many mobs close together.

  4. #24

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Our Problem with Scaling derives from the formulas Blizz is using to get our damage as Ret.

    Seal of Vengeance -

    Fills the Paladin with holy power, causing attacks to apply Holy Vengeance, which deals [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ] additional Holy damage over 15 sec. Holy Vengeance can stack up to 5 times. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time. Lasts 2 min.
    Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal [ 17.5% of AP + 28% of Spell Power + 1 ] Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 10% for each application of Holy Vengeance on the target.
    14% of base mana, Instant cast

    [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ]
    ^this part.
    Spellpower will never get up to being as high of numbers as AP.
    In Live now 1k spell damage is ~equally geared to a 2k AP set.
    The Numbers they are using are backwards imo. Spellpower having a lower "Normal" amount than AP.

    Now if they reversed the %'s you would in essence kill Rets Burstability.
    I dont recommend this.

    This is my suggestion :
    Change ONE seal to get Alot more Damage from Spellpower and no conversion from AP on ONE Seal, idk say Righteousness or Corrupt/Veng. (Hell Maybe both, make these two caster oriented seals). Then you wont have Ret Pallies using them for the double Coefficients and Sheath of Light Godliness.
    The Shockadin.
    You will respect my authority!!!

  5. #25

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by shockpally
    Yes, AW affects damage spells and Healing now. As far as Holy damage goes it seems they are missing out on Half of the modifiers for judgements. AP affects JoR to a lesser degree but it still is a modifier. Holy paladin only having one attribute that affect it and cuts their Damage in half even though they have more SP than Ret or Prot.
    The scaling should be tuned so that the same ipoints spent, untalented, on either AP or SP produces the same damage on Seals/Judgements. Period.

    What gives Prot/Ret the edge, if that were the case, would be the conversion talents that provide free SP.

  6. #26

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    the difference between a holy paladin and other healing classes is that those classes can respec(waiting for more info about dual spec) and use the same gear on spell dmg talent trees since spell is not separated from heal now(at least this is what most paladins where complaining). Actually i've seen shockadins that were using spell bonus items and enchants to deal burst dmg, and some of them used healing gear for more survivability and less dmg. Guess what now those holy paladins dont have to respec or change gear, they just use spells in offensive way and they deal dmg(so yes you should be happy since you are the only healers that dont need to respec or change gear to deal dmg)

    Some guy complained that seals now are calculated using attack power. Those seals are also using attack power and spell bonus. Equal amount if they are ment to be used by both specs or different amount if they are to be used by just one spec. The judged dmg also is different for those retri seals or holy seals.

    Think out of the box, shock+judge+seal of righteous, or whatever "good to use for holy dmg" seal

    yeah, yeah yeah go on flame me, just try to think you are the only healing class that was used as a dmg class in pvp and you can now do it better(btw holy shock CD decreased to 6 sec hmm what could a shockadin wish more)

  7. #27

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    here is a talent tree i suggest to a wotlk holy gear pala
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...00000000000000

    and because i forgot to say every paladin has strength, strength = attack power, so every seal you will use ven if it is a seal that should be use with spell dmg or a retri seal you will allways have a benefit from that AP to increase seal dmg, retri will also have spell bonus only if they use talent points. So both holy and retri use spell and AP on theyr seals. They only have to choose a corect seal to scale better with theyr predominant status.

    ... oh and one more thin seal of vengeance aka seal of corruption(damn this sounds so lockish) it's a prot recomended seal, holy will also have some benefits using it, but IMO holy gear should be used with seal of righteousness

  8. #28

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Here is how the progression went.

    1. Paladin abilities scaled with spell power and AP.
    2. Ret paladins spell power scaled with their AP.
    3. This meant AP was giving a double scaling to abilities for Ret Palas so to balance this
    4. Blizzard nerfed the spell power scaling instead of nerfing the AP scaling as they should have. It was the AP that was getting a double dip for Ret and that is what should have been changed.

    So because of this right now paladin damage skills scale incredibly poorly with spell power.

    For instance an ability with 20% of AP and 10% of SP scaling.

    A Ret paladin gets 20% of AP + 10% of 30% of AP from Sheath of Light = 23% of AP total.

    So if you increase the SP scaling on an ability by 3.3% for every 1% you drop AP scaling it makes no difference to Ret but gives a buff to Holy Scaling

    At 17% of AP + 20% of SP for example ret gets 17% + 20% of 30% of AP = 23% of AP.

    So from a Ret standpoint all of the following give the same scaling:

    20% AP + 10% SP
    19% AP + 13.3% SP
    18% AP + 16.7% SP
    17% AP + 20% SP
    and so on ...

    Obviously however in the last one Holy scales twice as well as it does in the first. Any and all abilities can be adjusted in this manner to improve Holy scaling without having any affect on Ret scaling whatsoever.

    In this manner each and every paladin ability can be readjusted to scale with SP better without affecting how Ret scales at all. Blizz just punished the double dip on AP by nerfing the SP part which was the wrong way to go about it.

    This may change prot palas a bit, but assuming they are looking at having AP/SP in roughly the same ratios as Ret has them now it won't make much of a difference.


  9. #29

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulver
    Here is how the progression went.

    1. Paladin abilities scaled with spell power and AP.
    2. Ret paladins spell power scaled with their AP.
    3. This meant AP was giving a double scaling to abilities for Ret Palas so to balance this
    4. Blizzard nerfed the spell power scaling instead of nerfing the AP scaling as they should have. It was the AP that was getting a double dip for Ret and that is what should have been changed.

    So because of this right now paladin damage skills scale incredibly poorly with spell power.

    For instance an ability with 20% of AP and 10% of SP scaling.

    A Ret paladin gets 20% of AP + 10% of 30% of AP from Sheath of Light = 23% of AP total.

    So if you increase the SP scaling on an ability by 3.3% for every 1% you drop AP scaling it makes no difference to Ret but gives a buff to Holy Scaling

    At 17% of AP + 20% of SP for example ret gets 17% + 20% of 30% of AP = 23% of AP.

    So from a Ret standpoint all of the following give the same scaling:

    20% AP + 10% SP
    19% AP + 13.3% SP
    18% AP + 16.7% SP
    17% AP + 20% SP
    and so on ...

    Obviously however in the last one Holy scales twice as well as it does in the first. Any and all abilities can be adjusted in this manner to improve Holy scaling without having any affect on Ret scaling whatsoever.

    In this manner each and every paladin ability can be readjusted to scale with SP better without affecting how Ret scales at all. Blizz just punished the double dip on AP by nerfing the SP part which was the wrong way to go about it.

    This may change prot palas a bit, but assuming they are looking at having AP/SP in roughly the same ratios as Ret has them now it won't make much of a difference.

    I'll agree with you, partly because toning down the AP coefficients will really limit the burst Ret has, and maybe they can get back some other things to compensate, like seal damage coming back up in %s.

  10. #30

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulver
    Here is how the progression went.

    1. Paladin abilities scaled with spell power and AP.
    2. Ret paladins spell power scaled with their AP.
    3. This meant AP was giving a double scaling to abilities for Ret Palas so to balance this
    4. Blizzard nerfed the spell power scaling instead of nerfing the AP scaling as they should have. It was the AP that was getting a double dip for Ret and that is what should have been changed.

    So because of this right now paladin damage skills scale incredibly poorly with spell power.

    For instance an ability with 20% of AP and 10% of SP scaling.

    A Ret paladin gets 20% of AP + 10% of 30% of AP from Sheath of Light = 23% of AP total.

    So if you increase the SP scaling on an ability by 3.3% for every 1% you drop AP scaling it makes no difference to Ret but gives a buff to Holy Scaling

    At 17% of AP + 20% of SP for example ret gets 17% + 20% of 30% of AP = 23% of AP.

    So from a Ret standpoint all of the following give the same scaling:

    20% AP + 10% SP
    19% AP + 13.3% SP
    18% AP + 16.7% SP
    17% AP + 20% SP
    and so on ...

    Obviously however in the last one Holy scales twice as well as it does in the first. Any and all abilities can be adjusted in this manner to improve Holy scaling without having any affect on Ret scaling whatsoever.

    In this manner each and every paladin ability can be readjusted to scale with SP better without affecting how Ret scales at all. Blizz just punished the double dip on AP by nerfing the SP part which was the wrong way to go about it.

    This may change prot palas a bit, but assuming they are looking at having AP/SP in roughly the same ratios as Ret has them now it won't make much of a difference.

    i do agree with allmost all you said there, but like i said before there are some spells like seal of righteousness that has greater sp gain than ap, and from what i know this is the seal that should be used by holy pala since this is why they have tallents for it.
    I also said before in this post that paladins have aprox 125 strength at lvl 70 that means 250 ap, now if we think that means about 20% of the spell damage of a well geared holy pala. This is the same as they would have a talent that would give them 20% of sp as ap. Seals that have ap ceficient and sp coef will help low geared holy palas, it's true this will not scale so great when they will get better gear because theyr ap+sp < ap+sp of retri; but you also have to take in consideration the fact that holy palas will now have same enchants,gems and all gear working for spell dmg and heal so they can throw a very good heal in, between dps rafals. I know that throwing heals to himself doesnt make happy a pala that wanna kill mobs but... if you do meet an opponent you have very high chances in killing him. I dont know why but i do have a feeling that holy palas will kick retri asses. I sure dont want to pvp against holy pala, at least not in 1 vs 1.

  11. #31

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by PalliesThrowStuff
    I'll agree with you, partly because toning down the AP coefficients will really limit the burst Ret has, and maybe they can get back some other things to compensate, like seal damage coming back up in %s.
    retri paladin has some skills that will deal 245% dmg on critical strikes, and if i remember well(i just dont wanna recheck it to be sure) one of those are all judgements. And since judgment while using command is allways crit if your target is stunned....... damn that is a controlled burst, especially after using 2 instant dmg abilities, one of them also having 245% dmg on crit. I dont know but seems you will only have to use a how if you got the luck to crit with first two spells.

  12. #32

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by PalliesThrowStuff
    I'll agree with you, partly because toning down the AP coefficients will really limit the burst Ret has, and maybe they can get back some other things to compensate, like seal damage coming back up in %s.
    I think you missed the point a bit. Changing the coefficients as I laid out would make absolutely no difference to the damage Ret is doing. If you want to tone down Ret's burst damage that is a different issue. I just showed how they can up the scaling of abilities for Holy without having any effect on Ret's damage whatsoever.

  13. #33

    Re: GC: Holy Soloing DPS

    Have you ever tried to AoE grind as a Holy Paladin? Works fine for me, 15-20 mobbs per pull depending on what kind of mobbs im dealing with. With this tactic I grind at least at the same speed as any other DPS class...

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