So this is Blizzard's understanding of balancing?

[Snes]

This is what blizzard thinks will happen if shamans become too powerful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDS83yrM30Y
it even summoned 3 wolves. 8)

[Gpa4ite2008]

the release of expansion things are so overpowered... hopefully they would balance them. A shaman summoning 3 wolfs is ghey because each wolfs deal ( same attack power as the shaman )

Starfall is ghey too .. although is channeling but in the beta theres a bug when a paladin bubble you after you click on starfall.... and its still channeling.

[myrddinde]

the release of expansion things are so overpowered... hopefully they would balance them. A shaman summoning 3 wolfs is ghey because each wolfs deal ( same attack power as the shaman )

Lol? Same Attack power as Shaman? Scale with AP means tehy are weaker with lower AP and are getting better with Higher AP, not that they have the same AP.
I tested Spirit Wolves since they were first available. And when they said "Wolves scale now with ap" their damage went down for me, about 50 per hit. I only have sunwell gear and a little Naxxramas Epics/Badge stuff.
You can check my Website for Video's of the Wolves if you like to.

[jkw]

"This video is not available in your country." - Youtube goes racists.

[Sarevokcz]

you eles are pathetic... bitching and bitching about dps... when everyone took it up the ass when it comes to a dps nerf except rogues and pallies... so deal with it... its not just you shut up

how about not telling crap?
dmg nerfs were for mages, hunters, locks and eleshamans, shadowpriests are still on low dmg, moonkins and pallies got their dmg improved alot, warrs too
from those 4 nerfed classes, shaman were the least who deserved it, period. oh btw, hunters are still on top of meters.

[aeonblue]

3. The author played this shaman on the beta server up to level 80 and changed gear a bit.

The video says that it's a level 80 premade shaman..

[Gish]

Guys, have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsTefpyN50s

I mean, erm, lol? And Blizzard says Elemental DPS is scary? Sorry what?
Let us all reroll druids, shall we?

sorry this doesnt prove anything! those 2 characters were pre-mades! u have full PvP gear! and u were testing DPS on dummies, for starters the PvP gear is not designed to raid/instance in! etc lack of hit, secondly to me yr shaman DPS rotation looked retarded to me!

[Yajiro]

sorry this doesnt prove anything! those 2 characters were pre-mades! u have full PvP gear! and u were testing DPS on dummies, for starters the PvP gear is not designed to raid/instance in! etc lack of hit, secondly to me yr shaman DPS rotation looked retarded to me!

tbh, the rotation looked fine to me, apart from the extra LB thrown in. hit is another issue since with the patch we lose 9% hit, so afaik we're worse off than boomkins now. the gear is on the same level, so the damage should at least be similar, but a boomkins hits almost doing the same as an ele CRIT is just obscene.

[MortuariusBC]

To all the QQers... feel free to reroll

Blizzard is making wotlk the "balance" expansion... and that doesnt mean druids

There is still time to fix things that need to be fixed. My experience from PTR and Beta is that ppl are QQing about their dps when the classes arent even finished and worse than that they are QQing when they arent even specd/geared/buffed correctly.

Elemental without using totems? no wonder the dps is low

I get this strange feeling that blizz devs are reading EJ posts and balancing it that way... meaning taking every single possible variation into account when balancing

I have high hopes for both my elem and resto shaman builds in wotlk... although my druid is currently better geared at 70 and is always an option

[anyaka21]

To all the QQers... feel free to reroll

Blizzard is making wotlk the "balance" expansion... and that doesnt mean druids

There is still time to fix things that need to be fixed. My experience from PTR and Beta is that ppl are QQing about their dps when the classes arent even finished and worse than that they are QQing when they arent even specd/geared/buffed correctly.

Elemental without using totems? no wonder the dps is low

I get this strange feeling that blizz devs are reading EJ posts and balancing it that way... meaning taking every single possible variation into account when balancing

I have high hopes for both my elem and resto shaman builds in wotlk... although my druid is currently better geared at 70 and is always an option

If they were truly looking and understanding EJ forums, then our dps would be higher. They would understand that we need scaling talents rather than what's there now. Blizz wouldn't have nerfed the LB coefficient as it was our only scaling talent.

Yeah, it's beta, but 3.0.2 goes live in 3 days, and Blizz has pretty much said that LK is ready to be shipped. Sure everything can change, and there will be patches. But as it stands, this means Blizz is okay with the direction of elemental - which for me is very very telling and shows they don't have a clue.

My guess is they'll up the dps somehow, but it'll more be a bandaid than an actual fix and as thus won't really help. Besides, it won't really matter because there won't be enough of them around to matter.

[Deleted]

Guys, have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsTefpyN50s

I mean, erm, lol? And Blizzard says Elemental DPS is scary? Sorry what?
Let us all reroll druids, shall we?

What is your beta realm character name?
Oh, you don't have one?

Then don't judge the state of the beta purely based on some sleasy Youtube video.
Now, go fill up the ocean with more of your tears.

[Sarevokcz]

My guess is they'll up the dps somehow, but it'll more be a bandaid than an actual fix and as thus won't really help. Besides, it won't really matter because there won't be enough of them around to matter.

that.

we saw that already several times, bandaids, which arent really fixing anything past some level of content, and it wasnt just to shaman class. mages got that too, with their coef nerfs in talents for shorter casts, and even upon removing them, mages werent catching locks in late content. and we saw that TWICE for eleshamans already in beta. they boosted base LvB damage twice, which isnt really solving anything and its just bandaid, not to mention we do not catch up with other casters in t7 content anyway, in both singletarget and aoe dps, if anything, we should compete atleast with balance druids in both aspects, not be vastly inferior to them.

What is your beta realm character name?
Oh, you don't have one?

Then don't judge the state of the beta purely based on some sleasy Youtube video.
Now, go fill up the ocean with more of your tears.

you are right, tho this video isnt based on anything else but true, even if it isnt his video, afaik this video was posted on beta forums by the man who made it, so...

[Eleena]

that.

we saw that already several times, bandaids, which arent really fixing anything past some level of content, and it wasnt just to shaman class. mages got that too, with their coef nerfs in talents for shorter casts, and even upon removing them, mages werent catching locks in late content. and we saw that TWICE for eleshamans already in beta. they boosted base LvB damage twice, which isnt really solving anything and its just bandaid, not to mention we do not catch up with other casters in t7 content anyway, in both singletarget and aoe dps, if anything, we should compete atleast with balance druids in both aspects, not be vastly inferior to them.

you are right, tho this video isnt based on anything else but true, even if it isnt his video, afaik this video was posted on beta forums by the man who made it, so...

SO you are trying to suggest shamans do less damage at lvl 80 then they do at lvl 70? ofcourse we talk end game gear here, but there are wws log of elemental shamns with 1500-1600 dps

[Sarevokcz]

SO you are trying to suggest shamans do less damage at lvl 80 then they do at lvl 70? ofcourse we talk end game gear here, but there are wws log of elemental shamns with 1500-1600 dps

have i said that single time? no.
but with same gear of proper level - t6 or SWP, even if i discount crit hit and haste reduction from gear thanks to scalling rating, LBs would hit for about the same with new ranks at 80 as they are now at 70, then yes, shaman would do less damage at 80 than at lev 70 right now. sure, we will get new gear, but what other class (besides SB spammer destrolocks, which needed adjusting) has to get better gear to do same damage per spell as they do now?

the truth is, our LBs will hit for less when 3.0.2 is released, that is the fact. they took out artifical improvement of LB coef, from 0.79 to 0.71, without actually giving us anything else for nonraid content, that loss will be there until we overcome it with loads of SP, which very well might be around mid 70 levs when powerfull blues will start being better than several t5 or t6 items.

but since we talk about endgame content... lets sumarize, what shamans got and lost, okay?

shaman lost: artifical coeficient for LB, Stormstrike charges (not reliable, no, but definately important improvement for dps)
shaman got: CoE, LvB

all in all, shaman didnt really got that much to improve their dps, all spreadsheets and theorycrafts show eleshaman barley scrathichng 3k dps in naxx, whereas most of the other classes can dish out atleast 1k dps more, granted, several specs are broken and are doing too good damage, but i can hardly believe they will nerf all specs, which are pulling significally more dps than eleshaman, especially moonkins, when they focused on them for atleast a month to give them their 3.8k+ dps and remove their bloat by overbudgeting talents (good for them, id like to see same love for some other specs, especially eleshaman and shadowpriests). they wont nerf them. not after that much work.

for math, check elitistjerks.

[Diatribe]

This test is in accurate. you have no haste. if you actually had haste and not blues you might hurt something. every ele shaman that gets taken to sunwell knows you need 250 haste+ to do competitive. Haste directly impacts Lo which im sure i read in a blue post is blizzards idea if making ele keep up with mages and locks. so untill you have good gear most tests are inaccurate.
I mean im sure they could buff spell coffe a bit to help the problem but over all i thking running a 4Lb-Lvb rotation will be nice once you get 25% haste+

Small problem with what you're saying:

1) You assume that the Druid wouldn't have any haste gear.
2) You assume that things would scale differently as a result, but you fail to factor in a couple of things of Balance Druid vs. Elemental Shaman, which are:
2a) Balance Druids are now to the point that their base damage output is on par with the damage output of an Elemental Shaman with regular Lightning Overload procs
2b) Balance Druids have routinely outdps'd Elemental Shaman when there is as little moving around as possible. So, when you have as little moving to do, a Balance Druid in equal quality gear & skill as an Elemental Shaman (with equal quality gear & skill) will do more dps.

[anyaka21]

Small problem with what you're saying:

1) You assume that the Druid wouldn't have any haste gear.
2) You assume that things would scale differently as a result, but you fail to factor in a couple of things of Balance Druid vs. Elemental Shaman, which are:
2a) Balance Druids are now to the point that their base damage output is on par with the damage output of an Elemental Shaman with regular Lightning Overload procs
2b) Balance Druids have routinely outdps'd Elemental Shaman when there is as little moving around as possible. So, when you have as little moving to do, a Balance Druid in equal quality gear & skill as an Elemental Shaman (with equal quality gear & skill) will do more dps.

I'm not really sure what you mean here, but beta is showing boomkin dps in the 4k range, where elementals are 3k and less.
And as far as the movement thing, I have no idea what you're talking about. Sure seems to me that boomkins are better at movement. moonfire being a spammable spell, where elementals only insta cast are shocks on a 6 sec cd. Granted, moonfire isn't a completely efficient spell, but then neither are shocks. Besides, movement has always been a strength of druids as a whole and its really not different with boomkin. insta cast that does 1500 damage and adds a dot?
Boomkins should and, IMO, are better in a movement fight

And as yet, I'm finding no reason to stick with my elemental as my main come LK. Boomkin is looking like a more solid spec, and neither day of class panels has done nothing to change my mind. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this either.

Blizzard should make a graveyard in a zone and all elementals can go there and die.

[rabbimojo]

One minor comment:
This 'LB coeff nerf' thing.. 0.79 to 0.71 someone said, though I haven't been keeping up with elem issues.
0.79/0.71 = 1.1127ish, IE LB scales 11% faster on live than post-coeff nerf.
However, it now benefits from CoE and similar debuffs. IE, 10-13% buff, applied to both base and coeff.
0.71/0.79 * 1.13 = 1.015, IE a 1.5% gain in -scaling-.
How exactly does that hit for less?

Not to mention, flametongue weapon now means an additional what, 130 sp talented? Counts for something.

I don't see cause for so much doom and gloom. Maybe one of these days I'll care enough about elem to read through EJ, but.. Blizz has made it pretty clear how they balance things. If there are legitimate claims that they're missing something about elem, then posting with solid numbers on the beta/PTR forums is the way to go. Complaining on MMOC does nothing but bring more negativity to an already overwhelmingly whiny community (referring to WoW as a whole).

[anyaka21]

One minor comment:
This 'LB coeff nerf' thing.. 0.79 to 0.71 someone said, though I haven't been keeping up with elem issues.
0.79/0.71 = 1.1127ish, IE LB scales 11% faster on live than post-coeff nerf.
However, it now benefits from CoE and similar debuffs. IE, 10-13% buff, applied to both base and coeff.
0.71/0.79 * 1.13 = 1.015, IE a 1.5% gain in -scaling-.
How exactly does that hit for less?

Not to mention, flametongue weapon now means an additional what, 130 sp talented? Counts for something.

I don't see cause for so much doom and gloom. Maybe one of these days I'll care enough about elem to read through EJ, but.. Blizz has made it pretty clear how they balance things. If there are legitimate claims that they're missing something about elem, then posting with solid numbers on the beta/PTR forums is the way to go. Complaining on MMOC does nothing but bring more negativity to an already overwhelmingly whiny community (referring to WoW as a whole).

posting something like this when you also say you haven't looked at the ej forums or beta forums or ptr forums shows how uninformed you are. WWS reports have bee posted ad nauseum, constantly, showing the dps elementals are doing and how far they are behind other classes.

With Blizzard saying LK is done, they've basically made it clear the only thing they'll be doing to bring up elemental dps will be bandaids.

Simple facts are that elmentals have ZERO scaling talents. Thus as they where the kings of kara and t4 content, and lessened throught out BC and into sunwell, it will continue a downward spiral unless this changes.

Please do research before posting uninformed garbage.

[Illyanna]

facts are facts Mir. Look at the reports on the links. They prove the point.

My whole question though asks basically in a fight like patchwerk, where is the dps supposed to be? If all similarly geared, say all blues, all premade toons, what should everyones dps be?

My guess would be around 4k. If that is the case then those doing near 5k, need serious nerfs, and those in the 3k range, namely elementals, need serious buffs.

Just because you say something doesnt mean its a fact, ive seen "skilled" hunters with better gear than me doing 2,4k dps on brut, where i did 2,7k dps, same group/buffs and what not. And guess what, the other guys had played hunter since retail launch and i have for 4 months..

Just because someone has played a class for a long time, doesnt justify that he has a single clue about playing it to the best of his potential, hell check what i say with a simple experiement. Join a kara pug and see 1k spell dmg guys do 400-700 dps, and dude we did roughly 500dps at lvl60 in naxx -.-.

Blizzard knows what they are doing, and they have plenty of time to balance things, but they cant do that if they arent changing stuff in each beta build, as they gotta check numbers and how things work ingame.

[anyaka21]

Just because you say something doesnt mean its a fact, ive seen "skilled" hunters with better gear than me doing 2,4k dps on brut, where i did 2,7k dps, same group/buffs and what not. And guess what, the other guys had played hunter since retail launch and i have for 4 months..

Just because someone has played a class for a long time, doesnt justify that he has a single clue about playing it to the best of his potential, hell check what i say with a simple experiement. Join a kara pug and see 1k spell dmg guys do 400-700 dps, and dude we did roughly 500dps at lvl60 in naxx -.-.

Blizzard knows what they are doing, and they have plenty of time to balance things, but they cant do that if they arent changing stuff in each beta build, as they gotta check numbers and how things work ingame.

while the random burst damage of all classes can exceed on boss fight or 2 because of an insane amount of crits, the whole idea behind the link that I posted was that not once in my recollection did any elemental shaman exceed 4k dps while other classes/specs are doing it with regularity.

So sure, some could suck, some could have bad gear, etc... but the highest i've heard of any elemental shaman was 3.8k and that was because of 50% crit, which was his insane burst damage, thus the exception and not the rule.

Thus again, facts are facts, all the reports tell us what we need to know about our dps, and we can confirm this through a thorough study of the spec and see not a single scaling talent. In other words, naxx really is as good as it's gonna get for elementals, unless Blizzard changes the spec dramatically.

But Blizz just confirmed another quote today at blizzcon in the class panel, in the hunter Q&A part about how elementals had good push back, which they don't even have a talent for, and only through a 4 piece pvp set did they get it and that was only 50% (previously it was 70% but got nerfed), which severely hurt an already sketch pvp spec as it was.

There is evidence all over the place that Blizzard's developers just don't understand the class. All you have to do is look.