PvE Tanking - Night Elf or Human?

[Scorp223]

I need help deciding between these two races. I've leveled both types from 55 to 58 on beta and still can't choose.

I know there's quite a few threads about race choice but I haven't found anyone discussing the differences of these two races.

Looks-wise I prefer night elf male as I've made quite a few human males in the past and no NE. Racials are where I'm torn though.

Night Elf
Quickness - Reduces the chance that melee and ranged attackers will hit you by 2%.
Seems like quite an awesome racial for a tank.

Human
Sword Specialization - Expertise with Swords and Two-Handed Swords increased by 3.
Mace Specialization - Expertise with Maces and Two-Handed Maces increased by 3.
Also great racials - but is 3 expertise greater than quickness?

Every Man for Himself - Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character. This effect shares a cooldown with other similar effects.
Also useful but very situational. Probably wouldn't use very often.

I know I should choose based on what I'd be most happy with but as I like to min/max absolutely everything possible to achieve the best stats I want to be sure I've made the right decision. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Nyraa]

I agree, but I simply cannot make a Night Elf Death Knight.
I might have to kill myself.

[Bainz]

Then don't Nyraa?

Simple huh? Unless you want to kill your self.

Avoidance seems pretty valuable.
The Human Racial could be useful in some instances/raids though.

Probably NE.
Not an expert at tanking races though.

[Nyraa]

XD Yeah Bainz, that's what I meant to say, if I were to make one for the racial, I'd have to kill myself.
Night elf death knight, just does not seem... right.

[Nyraa]

Well yeah, but arguing between human vs. night elf, I'm just commenting on the night elf aspect.

[Azstaru]

ne would be good Dk from racials and the look ( demon hunters etc ) they are dark skinned if you get dark purple etc fits in with shadow/dark of death knights

[gyfted]

It's my understanding that human's wont have mace expertise anymore, that's being given to dwarves.

So you have to decide sword specialization/rep gain/trinket or 2% avoidance/shadowmeld/wisp!

[Avadon]

Anyone who is serious about end-game tanking with their DK is going to take avoidance over expertise, for reasons that have already been pointed out. Personally I rolled a NE for my prot war because of the 1% dodge (1% avoidance) and now they're changing 1% dodge to 2% chance to be missed (twice as good). 3 expertise is nice, but not all that hard to get with gear. 2% avoidance as a tank, for free... invaluable. Remember avoidance has exponential returns, and Death Knights being avoidance tanks to the extreme, that 2% will go even further on a DK than a prot war (though some will argue that chance to be missed scales inversely with dodge/parry).
If you're still not convinced, consider talents in the frost tree: 2 talent points gives you 2% chance to be missed (NE racial is worth exactly 2 talent points); how many talent points would you spend to get 3 expertise? 2 talent points in frost gives you not only 4 expertise instead of only 3, but also +4% damage done to victims of frost fever. Granted the 4 expertise with damage boost is much deeper in the frost tree, but it somewhat goes to show the value of avoidance. Also in the blood tree there's a talent that's +1% Str, +1% Stam, +1 expertise per talent, right? Few people would take a talent that just gave 1 expertise per talent point (tanks I mean, unless parry-shred is a huge concern on some of the new content); everyone takes 1% avoidance per talent point. People have considered some of the +Str% talents to try to buff their parry rating for avoidance. It isn't worth it, but consider that the NE racial (not considering inverse scaling) would be like having 98 parry rating for free, from an avoidance stand-point.
Another thing to consider is that while expertise is still very important for DK's, you'll hopefully be going frost, which gets 10 from talents anyway, and will also be using a fair amount of spells for agro, which expertise won't help anyway. Also with the change to rune strike, getting dodged or parried isn't nearly as hurtful to your TPS as it used to be, and tanks don't have as hard of a time holding threat anyway, so the real focus should be on taking as little damage as possible anyway since threat generation is almost a non-issue.

[Iviore]

Also with the change to rune strike, getting dodged or parried isn't nearly as hurtful to your TPS as it used to be, and tanks don't have as hard of a time holding threat anyway, so the real focus should be on taking as little damage as possible anyway since threat generation is almost a non-issue.

They way I understood Rune Strike was that it procs when you dodge or parry, not when the mob dodge or parry your attack. Which way is it ??

[Cûr]

Anyone who is serious about end-game tanking with their DK is going to take avoidance over expertise, for reasons that have already been pointed out. Personally I rolled a NE for my prot war because of the 1% dodge (1% avoidance) and now they're changing 1% dodge to 2% chance to be missed (twice as good). 3 expertise is nice, but not all that hard to get with gear. 2% avoidance as a tank, for free... invaluable. Remember avoidance has exponential returns, and Death Knights being avoidance tanks to the extreme, that 2% will go even further on a DK than a prot war (though some will argue that chance to be missed scales inversely with dodge/parry).
If you're still not convinced, consider talents in the frost tree: 2 talent points gives you 2% chance to be missed (NE racial is worth exactly 2 talent points); how many talent points would you spend to get 3 expertise? 2 talent points in frost gives you not only 4 expertise instead of only 3, but also +4% damage done to victims of frost fever. Granted the 4 expertise with damage boost is much deeper in the frost tree, but it somewhat goes to show the value of avoidance. Also in the blood tree there's a talent that's +1% Str, +1% Stam, +1 expertise per talent, right? Few people would take a talent that just gave 1 expertise per talent point (tanks I mean, unless parry-shred is a huge concern on some of the new content); everyone takes 1% avoidance per talent point. People have considered some of the +Str% talents to try to buff their parry rating for avoidance. It isn't worth it, but consider that the NE racial (not considering inverse scaling) would be like having 98 parry rating for free, from an avoidance stand-point.
Another thing to consider is that while expertise is still very important for DK's, you'll hopefully be going frost, which gets 10 from talents anyway, and will also be using a fair amount of spells for agro, which expertise won't help anyway. Also with the change to rune strike, getting dodged or parried isn't nearly as hurtful to your TPS as it used to be, and tanks don't have as hard of a time holding threat anyway, so the real focus should be on taking as little damage as possible anyway since threat generation is almost a non-issue.

Excellent post, thank you.

And as much as I dislike NElfs and like HUM and DWF, NElfs will be 'the' DK tank choice is you are a min-max'er.

[Avadon]

They way I understood Rune Strike was that it procs when you dodge or parry, not when the mob dodge or parry your attack. Which way is it ??

From what I understand, it works like warrior's Overpower, except used after your target dodges ~or~ parries a melee attack; I could be wrong of course.

[gyfted]

Rune Strike activates (becomes availale to use for 10runic power) once you parry/dodge and  CANNOT  miss/parry/dodge.

[Liameyna]

From what I understand, it works like warrior's Overpower, except used after your target dodges ~or~ parries a melee attack; I could be wrong of course.

This is currently correct, but Beta isn't over. Who knows...

Current Rune Strike Tooltip: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=56815

[Iviore]

You are wrong.

Rune Strike becomes available when YOU dodge or parry the attack from the mob, not when the mob dodge or parry your attack.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...Id=10532598374

[gyfted]

You are wrong.

Rune Strike becomes available when YOU dodge or parry the attack from the mob, not when the mob dodge or parry your attack.

QFT

4) We changed Rune Strike completely. It is now mostly a tanking ability meant to dish out high damage (and therefore threat). Rune Strike can only be used after YOU dodge or parry an attack. It affects the next swing, so it doesn't compete with global cooldowns and can be spammed to some extent. It hits for 200% weapon damage (remember 100% of that is the white swing you lost) plus a percentage of AP. It cannot be dodged, blocked or parried, and costs 10 runic power (for now). Think Heroic Overrevenge.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/18/1053...g-changes.html

And to adrress the topic, It seems NE would be better for tanking. I'm still rolling human for the rep gain. Considering how many rep gains I will have to make I loved it on my human priest, and hated not having it on other characters.
And to the people that say you can gear for expertise, yes you can. But instead of having to get more expertise, I'll have more stamina. <3

[Darkeningsky]

night elf would be better for tanking, like you said, the human's racial is situational, where as the night elf's is always beneficial, plus, other races do just fine tanking without a racial CC breaker

[Karpalo]

Also new shadowmeld ain`t actually that bad for tanks in raids. Think fights like gurtogg you just could drop your aggro and let offtank grab it instead waiting him to go 110% of your threat.

[gyfted]

Basically usable in combat, drops mobs aggro temporarily until you come out of shadowmeld or the mob dies/resets.

[Nilinor]

Kinda curious as to why it really matters if you get 2% more miss. It will be ok in the beginning I suppose, but since the removal of crushing blows, I don't see such a big difference on being hit one more time every 50 times your attacked? Seeing how most things that can kill you are ability or AOE type attacks, a single hit of 4-8k isn't going to be that big of a difference, and if it is, you might want to rethink your healers abilities...

Personally, I think expertise would have more use, because in the end you can just enchant yourself with agility and get more bang for your buck then trying to make up for the defense needed to maintain a high avoidance rate. Besides, if the mob can parry, that could mean parry hasting, which could pretty much screw your day when he throws off 2-4 attacks in rapid order. Ya you have 2% extra miss rate, but if he constantly parry hastes that 2% gets eaten up pretty fast on the statistics scale, which pretty much means you could take more damage.

I probably won't play a DK, Ill have one just cause I can, but playing I will probably not. But, thats kinda why everything gets its own bonus so there shouldn't be a "prime" class for certain aspects of the game. Expertise,Miss,Stoneform,Healing,(not sure about gnomes, really haven't played that race) for alliance. Got the +HP,stun resist,berserker,(not sure for undead race or BE race)

Just saying in all, shouldn't about being "min/maxed" because even if you are, when all is said and done, everyone will wear the same gear regardless of your race. If your a DK tank, your going to be wearing the same as all the others at around the same time (if your hardcore raiding guild) regardless of what your race is. I guarantee you will not notice a difference.

~Yes I know its a wall of text, but I broke it apart to make it easier~

[Snes]

Dwarf is a good option if you want both the 5+ expertise for maces and the mitigation offered from stoneskin and frost resistance(alot of Icecrown glacier bosses I'm guess will use frost-related moves).