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  1. #1

    Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    I'm looking for some constructive criticism as far as speccs for raiding for for 70 eith 3.0 almost here and at 80 in WOTLK.

    Raiding build at 70

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000

    First couple things. I didn't specc into any pet buffing talents because I find that trying to balance pet vs personal dps is a lost cause at 70. just not enough room to balance it. And the 1 point in Searing Pain is because there wasn't anything really worth it and I usually tank random mobs in BT and Hyjal. Locks I'm sure you know what i mean.

    Rotation would go something like:

    Curse of (whatever assigned)->Corruption->Immolate->Conflagrate->(Backdraft Procc)->Immolate->Incinerate x ?*

    Rotation would end when Corruption needs reapplied. Immolate should run out as the GCD falls off. The ?* will vary due to haste so I didn't use a definitive number

    Now, as far as 80 goes. I haven't read enough to convince me that the Imp out dps'ing will survive boss fights or heavy AOE damage. I keep reading the buffing of pet survivability but nothing conclusive. So for now I am going with more personalized DPS speccs.

    Level 80 build

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000

    Again, stuck with a random point at the end I just threw in Shadowfury. Kinda like a ghetto Dragon's Breath for Locks. More of a toy than anything.

    Rotation would be as follows:

    Curse of (whatever assigned)->Corruption->Immolate->Incinerate x ?*>Conflagrate->(Backdraft Procc)->Chaos Bolt->Sbolt->Sbolt

    At this point Corruption should run out. Continue with rotation.

    Not sure if you should use Incinerate over Sbolt if MC is up at the time? Didn't run numbers on that.

    Positive feedback welcomed =D

  2. #2

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    That's my point of view:

    lvl70:
    First of all affliction seems a lot more viable for the rest of lvl 70 and will be the main DPS spec.

    I tested many destru specs and rotations but it all ends up in heavy mana problems and/or low dmg. A full specced imp can't pass 200dps and I don't know anything about the survivability of this low health creature^.^
    without any support and about 5 min fighting it's impossible with any rotation to get more than ~1600dps on a dummy while other classes like Moonkin or Hunter do 2500dps without having problems...

    Whatever, the best destru spec I think is:
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warl...00000000000000

    I reached the highest DPS doing this rotation:
    CoE - Immo - Corr - Conflag - SB x 2 - CB - Immo - Inci x X - Conflag ;repeat from SB x 2
    and always Corruption on the target

    anyway it's very very mana intensive and without mana support other rotations like Immo - inci - conflag - immo - inci - conflag ... do nearly the same DPS

    All in all destru sucks and affliction is nice!

  3. #3

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Why would you mix in shadowbolts Lassie?

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans nocturnus's Avatar
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    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Quote Originally Posted by Lassive
    without any support and about 5 min fighting it's impossible with any rotation to get more than ~1600dps on a dummy while other classes like Moonkin or Hunter do 2500dps without having problems...

    All in all destru sucks and affliction is nice!
    Destro doesn't suck at all, far from it. Considering your other posts, mr. lassative, I'm really inclined to think it is you/your gear/your build and your rotations that actually suck.

    Conflag results in an overall lower dps and damage output. This is the raiding build you should aim for at level 70 imo:
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=I0xZcZVcGVr0uVcAbct

    By using both COA and CORR you'll have a constant uptime of MC.

  5. #5

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus
    By using both COA and CORR you'll have a constant uptime of MC.
    wow the first right sentence from you today. good work watson!

  6. #6

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Are you taking imp Corruption for the crit boost on SoC ? If so, ShadowFury is a nice AoE boost when you are "competing against" the shadow specced locks in the raid.

    Putting those points in emp. Imp is a bit sketchy imo. Chance upon chance upon chance. Just let it dps if you want to and put the talents in spots that boost your char, not your pet. In other words, I agree with you there.

    I'm not so sure if 13 pts in Demo is helping you put out more dps than putting those in Affliction or Destruction.

  7. #7

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=IZbxczsxoZEc0qr0uV0A

    i think that this spec is best for lvl 70 to raid...

    actually i have aleso one affliction build, but i dont care because it will be nerfed for sure because its OP.

    in this pve destro spec i prefer rather molten core and emberstorm instead od soul leech..i would change for soul leech only if there is no heal in raid

  8. #8

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus
    Destro doesn't suck at all, far from it. Considering your other posts, mr. lassative, I'm really inclined to think it is you/your gear/your build and your rotations that actually suck.

    Conflag results in an overall lower dps and damage output. This is the raiding build you should aim for at level 70 imo:
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=I0xZcZVcGVr0uVcAbct

    By using both COA and CORR you'll have a constant uptime of MC.
    The only reason you would conflag is to get the haste effect on 3 of your spells. + with Fire and Brimstone it has a extra 25% chance to crit... This will be apart of almost all destro rotations...

  9. #9

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaydee
    The only reason you would conflag is to get the haste effect on 3 of your spells. + with Fire and Brimstone it has a extra 25% chance to crit... This will be apart of almost all destro rotations...
    i think we can expect major changes in all trees before lvl 80
    100% affli tree will be nerfed

  10. #10

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    According to the math, conflag results in a DPS increase... it's all about the timings though, you don't wantto clip your 2nd to last tick of immolate, and you don't wantto waste GCD's waiting to conflag... Basically this is possible because Inc is 2.25 sec without haste... meaning you have .35 sec's to conflag if you the incerate rotation just happens to land on the last 3 sec of immolate... if you Inc and 3 or less sec's are left on immolate then you conflag and refresh immolate and start Inc/CB spam again, while keeping CoA up (for Molten Core Procs).

    Now I don't have time to go about showing the math as to why this is higher but if you think about it, a Conflag basically saves you the time it cost to cast with it's 30% haste increase, and it also does more DMG then that last tick of immolate, but again, you can't let conflag take more than 1 tick of immolate or stop your inc spam.

  11. #11

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    In a raid situation you don't always have the leisure to put up Agony. Sometimes it is Reck or Doom, Elements etc

    My reasoning behind Imp. Corruption was since it is always going to be up why not buff it? The crit to SoC is a bonus. And conflag is not a dps loss with the procc from backdraft.

    Also, Fire 'n Brimstone from everything I have read, is a bogus talent.

    Maxing out the imp in Demonology was so I had the max HP buff if he was going to be out

  12. #12

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    ^

  13. #13

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Quote Originally Posted by Lassive
    wow the first right sentence from you today. good work watson!
    fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus
    Destro doesn't suck at all, far from it. Considering your other posts, mr. lassative, I'm really inclined to think it is you/your gear/your build and your rotations that actually suck.

    Conflag results in an overall lower dps and damage output. This is the raiding build you should aim for at level 70 imo:
    http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=I0xZcZVcGVr0uVcAbct

    By using both COA and CORR you'll have a constant uptime of MC.
    Your spec is almost exactly what mine is, nice. A few minor points:

    1) The Imp doesn't get Cataclysm's hit, so personally I took aftermath so that I could slow mobs that I aggro in instances. Also it's a fun talent. :P

    2) I would drop 2 points in Imp. Corr for Imp. CoA. 10% CoA damage vs. 4% Corr damage.

    3) Fire & Brimstone sucks. Ass. And IIRC the talent points are bugged and don't increase the damage properly. So honestly I dropped those points for Shadowfury and Nether Protection. Both of these spells would be really useful for surviving AOE situations in raids, meeting stone PVP, soloing, fun, etc....

    4) I would also drop the last F&B point and 1 in Imp. Immolate for 2 points in Imp. Life Tap. 20% less Life Tapping is going to be pretty significant, especially since your LTs will be going down initially with the switch to spirit based.


    -----------

    Anyone that goes more than 21 Destro in 3.0 and Wrath but doesn't get Chaos Bolt fails. That's why you get Emp. Imp, because you have to have at least SOME pet out, and Emp. Imp is a nice crit boost.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler (Blue Tracker)
    We don't think burst is a problem in PvP right now.

  14. #14

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    I don't know, i'd rather take conflag and backdraft over FnB anytime really.

    I got a question tho, that i never really got an answer. Lets say you have 3 seconds left on your immolate, you cast incin (lets assume you're at 2.1 seconds with haste). now, this leaves you .9 seconds left on immolate.

    Now my question is this. Does incinerate gain the bonus from immolate when it HITS the target afected by immolate, or when you CAST incin, with a target affected by immolate?

    Basically, if i cast conflag right after seeing incin. "go" to the mob, but before hitting the mob, does my incin. get the bonus dmg?

  15. #15

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Quote Originally Posted by showwow
    Now my question is this. Does incinerate gain the bonus from immolate when it HITS the target afected by immolate, or when you CAST incin, with a target affected by immolate?

    Basically, if i cast conflag right after seeing incin. "go" to the mob, but before hitting the mob, does my incin. get the bonus dmg?
    didn't take a closer look at it, but the bonus dmg for inci from immo must count from the point where your cast has finished. It's the same like a frostmage casting a frostbolt on a frozen target. The crit bonus counts if the target is frozen while your cast has finished and has started to "go" to the mob...

    Example(2,1sec inci casttime):
    0:00 2,2sec immolate dot left
    0:00 start casting inci
    0:021 inci "goes" to the mob
    0:022 immolate ends
    0:025 inci hits the target

    in this case incinerate will get the bonus from immolate

  16. #16

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    form the patch notes notes 5/5 emberstorm take of .5s on incinerate so that would make incinerate a 2.0 second cast w/o haste.

  17. #17

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Quote Originally Posted by stupid11

    1) The Imp doesn't get Cataclysm's hit, so personally I took aftermath so that I could slow mobs that I aggro in instances. Also it's a fun talent. :P
    Despite the fact that you really ought NOT to be drawing aggro as it is, and if you are, you need to work on it. The fact that you're okay with pulling speaks volumes.

    Nevermind that many higher-tier mobs are immune to daze.

    EDIT: Oh, did I mention, 3% to hit. I really shouldn't have to say any more.

    2) I would drop 2 points in Imp. Corr for Imp. CoA. 10% CoA damage vs. 4% Corr damage.
    This is the one point I will agree with.

    At 70, this is 1356 + 10% (135-136) vs. 900 + 4% (36).
    At 80, this is 1740 + 10% (174) vs. 1080 + 4% (43-44).

    Wait a sec, unless we count in spell damage coefficients! We'll assume 1200 spell damage.

    At 70, this becomes (1356 + 120% (1440)) (2796) + 10% (279-280), so 3075-3076 over 24, slowly at first.
    vs. (900 + 93.6% (1123-1124)) (2023-2024) + 4% (80-81), so 2103-2105 over 18, consistant ticks.

    And 80 has it being (1740 + 120% (1440)) (3180) + 10% (318), so 3498 over 24, slowly at first.
    vs. (1080 + 93.6% (1123-1124)) (2203-2204) + 4% (88-89), so 2291-2293 over 18, consistant ticks.

    2/2 Imp. CoA > 2/5 Imp. Corruption, pretty consistantly.

    Unless there are any AoE situations, period. Then each point in Imp. Corruption also gives a % to crit with Seed, which is commonly considered a 1% total increase in damage. So, take the average AoE pull, add 2% damage to your Seed damage, and tell me if that comes out ahead of your Curse of Agony damage on, say, a 1 minute long fight. Don't forget that this should also include a little over 1% of your Corruption damage.

    But, seeing as even one extra crit from my seed is at least another 1000 damage, and there are multiple targets (often ranging 8+), that extra chance to crit is going to garner a couple of extra crits. So, you can look at it this way: An extra 900 damage over 1 minute (assuming you have more than 1200 spell power, and you somehow condense 24 seconds worth of damage into 12) or an extra 2000 + an additional 4% to your corruption dots.

    I think I'm gonna stick with Imp. Corruption. Just imagine how far Imp. Corruption would outweigh Imp. CoA if you got stuck on Curse duty, for whatever reason.

    3) Fire & Brimstone sucks. Ass. And IIRC the talent points are bugged and don't increase the damage properly. So honestly I dropped those points for Shadowfury and Nether Protection. Both of these spells would be really useful for surviving AOE situations in raids, meeting stone PVP, soloing, fun, etc....
    Really. Let's see...

    At 70, Immolate does 327 initial, and 615 over 15 seconds.
    With spell power, that's 20% (we're gonna run with 1200 spell power again, so this is 240), and 65% (780) over 15 seconds.
    Totalling 567 + 1395 / 15s. But wait, there's a few talents to add.

    Improved Immolate - Increases the initial damage of Immolate by 30%. Mm, tasty.
    737-738 + 1395 / 15s.

    Fire and Brimstone - Increases the damage of your Immolate spell by 15% of your spell power. Hm, that specifically doesn't increase the damage it gains FROM your spell power, but increases the damage by a percentage of your spellpower. So it's a secondary effect, so guess what! That's right, compound multiplication.
    2132-2133 / 15s (total) to 2312-2313 / 15s.

    That's not spectacular, to be honest. But wait! Fire and Brimstone has a secondary effect, too! "...and the critical strike chance of your Conflagrate spell by 25% if the Immolate on the target has 5 or fewer seconds remaining."

    Okay, so, correct me if I'm wrong. This would give the average Destruction warlock a base 50% chance to crit with Conflagrate if they let Immolate tick before casting it, like any self-respecting Conflag-casting warlock would in a long term fight? I like those odds.

    Hmm...this encourages us to use Conflagrate. You know what else does?

    Backdraft
    When you cast Conflagrate, the cast time of your next 3 Destruction spells is reduced by 30%.

    Oh, oh nice. 1.5 Immolates down to 1.0! 2.25 Incinerates down to 1.575! Chaos Bolts down to 1.4! THIS IS MADNESS!

    4) I would also drop the last F&B point and 1 in Imp. Immolate for 2 points in Imp. Life Tap. 20% less Life Tapping is going to be pretty significant, especially since your LTs will be going down initially with the switch to spirit based.
    I lied when I said I agreed with you earlier. I agree with this...or do I? Life Tap will change from it's current form (580 health -> 580 mana, with an 80% spell power coeffiecient, so with our hypothetical warlock, that's 1540 health for 1540 mana.) to (710 + (Spi * 3)) health for (710 + (Spi * 3)) mana. Now, we all know, spirit isn't our favorite stat. Mine's sitting at 157 right now, so we'll use that as a base for this calculation. 157 * 3 = 471, so 710 + 471 = 1181 health for 1181 mana. This is with -5% Spirit (Demonic Embrace) and +23 Spirit on my boots., so that will actually increase a bit, but not enough to match life tap's current form. So we will go down.

    ...but Improved Soul Leech. Even 1 point gives us the ability to do it, which is 30% chance to restore 1% maximum mana on every nuke we cast. That's 84 mana for me, and it rockets up to 101-110 when raid buffed. That doubles if you can spare the points to max the talent out. So, we'll assume 2.5s nukes, and only 45s of time per minute to cast them. That's 18 casts, so 5-6 of those as an average ought to return our mana, so (we'll average 9001 mana), that's 90 mana per proc, 5 procs, so 450 mana. And we didn't even have to spend a global cooldown to do it! Double that with two points into it. And that's mathing conservatively.

    So, I'm gonna finish with a resounding, "No."


    As for the other posters, Incinerate gets the bonus damage when it hits the mob, not when it is cast -- which makes perfect Immo - Incin - Conflag rotations a waiting game on that very last incinerate.
    Originally Posted by Daxxarri (Blue Tracker)
    What you're experiencing is world PvP on a PvP realm. I realize that it's not for everyone, but it's not something that we plan to adjust. The harsh reality is that life on a PvP realm can be difficult, and if you aren't prepared for the rigors of playing on such a realm, then it's probably in your best interest to transfer to a normal realm, or, if you cannot afford that, then consider creating a new character on a normal realm.
    Grim Campfire

  18. #18

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Quote Originally Posted by tiberius
    form the patch notes notes 5/5 emberstorm take of .5s on incinerate so that would make incinerate a 2.0 second cast w/o haste.
    wayne? it was just an example

  19. #19

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    Emaluri, you sound like a smart guy as far as numbers go.

    Any input on my speccs?

  20. #20

    Re: Another Destruction Lock Build, 70 and 80

    lassive

    "Emberstorm now reduces the cast time of your incinerate by 0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4/0.5 seconds."
    read the patch notes on the front page of mmo

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