Why does Boomkin DPS > Mage DPS in 3.0.2

[EnderAsha]

So i'm a healer in a T6 guild. I picked up a decent bit of offspec gear along the way and am 1/2 T5 1/2 T6 for boomkin gear. It's only meh...I'm hit capped with 1200 spell damage and 27% crit not counting imp FF and Imp Insect Swarm. So i guess that puts me at 33% crit self buffed with 3.5% haste. Nothing to write home about.

How come when we got a ret paladin for infinite mana and a ele shaman to buff our spells did I out dps one of our regular mages in T6 gear. Before you say anything YES he's very good and our raid leader and he tried numerous specs. It might have just been a lot of RNG in my favor but i religiously out dps'd him.

In my misshappen gear set i averaged 2100-2200 DPS and he had higher DPS peaks but he was less total damage done in the same time frame but not by a lot. We went for 5 minutes and were doing hundreds of thousands of damage for a large sampling.

So...I edge him out in dps and damage done. I shouldn't...but i do. Aren't mages suposed to be 5% more damage than me? I know their talents are all tuned for 80...and i've been in Tier 7 25 mans all well geared and mages do outperform hybrids by 5% there...but why is 70 so fubar'd??

[Isashi]

us balance druids can get all our core talents for pure DPS by the time we hit 70 ... all talents from here on out are fillers for increased mana regen, a fraction more spellpower and a little more raid utility imo

im just loving the AoE dmg we can do now ... but must learn to be careful with starfall ... thats gonna break some CC in the future for sure

[Offhand]

Boomkins, frost mages, spreists, and ret paladins all outscale other classes right now.

[healme]

Boomkins, frost mages, spreists, and ret paladins all outscale other classes right now.

Have you raided Sunwell yet ?

Spriest are rooted to bottom again in pure dps terms.

[Sarevokcz]

Have you raided Sunwell yet ?

Spriest are rooted to bottom again in pure dps terms.

this. Spriests and Eleshamans are the worst 2 dps specs (not counting holy dps tbh) and saying, that shadowpriests outscale other classes is ridiculous

[Sarevokcz]

this. Spriests and Eleshamans are the worst 2 dps specs (not counting holy dps tbh) and saying, that shadowpriests outscale other classes is ridiculous

It's a Utility DPS Spec, get over it.

moonkins, enhashamans and retris arent? bad logic imo.

[Zappaz]

eh not sure what bosses you're looking at but when we killed Brut on Tuesday I was top dps as a fire mage (11/50/0) at 3250 dps... but thats with a jacked up UI and server lagging which caused some messed up rotations and even scorch dropping off once. The dps of mages is pretty good right now imo.

[Ravenblade]

Moonkins base damage has been upped by alot, that's all, no change to scaling done.

Before I'm asking how Elemental Shamans could outDPS a Mage: How come the mage did less than 2k DPS? o_O
Not saying that it's impossible to get close to Mages, just that 2.2k DPS area shouldn't be the range to make judgements about DPS advantages especially at T6 level.

[EnderAsha]

As far as the dps range we were working in there was a limiter to the buffs we were using. We were not not fully raid buffed nor was any heroism blown or anything fancy.

I'm pretty sure that he knew what he was doing for dps and could easily do more with buffs that isn't the issue. As for output the Ele shaman and Ret Paladin were close to me at just over 2K DPS as well. I know that Boomkin base spell damage was altered but that can't be all there is to it with other hybrids also performing that well in comparison.

As for the mage who claimed to do 3250 dps on brutallus are you talking peak, sustained, was that with heroism / combustion? Situational DPS bursts are not what I care about as much. i'm talking straight up raw output.

The point being my mage friend is very idealistic and is upset greatly by the fact that hybrids should come anywhere close to pure DPs'ers. Even though at 80 the pures float to the top it's not balanced at 70. I know I get ALL my damage boosting talents at 70 and that could be it. I think it irks him that a hybrid could in theory go be a healer if the player chose to and that versatility doesn't exist in the mage. I respect that and am trying to find a silver lining to it. I guess the argument is that it all works out at 80 and that its a good thing people are close in DPS so you can bring whoever you want i guess.

It varied from fight to fight but on the beta on fights without damage amp the tier 7 geared dps did about the following:
Pure DPS (Mages Hunters etc. minus Warlocks) - 3.6-3.8K DPS
Hybrids - 3.3-3.5 ish K DPS
Shadow Priests - 2.4-2.6K DPS
Warlocks - 2.2-2.6K DPS
Tanks - 2-2.2K DPS

[Zappaz]

it was a common raid group, flasked/oil/food, there was a heroism at the start (stupid shaman hit it for some reason) so I didnt benefit from stacking hero+molten fury, I did use combustion once. This was dps at the end of the fight. This was also without glyphs so stacking scorch wasted some dps time,especially since it fell off once. The RNG was okay, nothing spectacular. I will post a WWS link if WWS ever decides to update their system to show 3.0 logs.

Top 5 dps was
Mage - 3250 (me)
Hunter - 3100
Rogue - 3075 (dual glaives)
Hunter - 3050
Shaman - 2998 - Enhance

numbers arent exact (except shamans since we were messin with him for bein so close to 3k) but only ~50 dps off at most. As I said, I can post WWS if they get off their lazy butts over there and update the site. Oh.. and our boomkin did 2100, his gear sounds pretty close to what you have as well.

[Ravenblade]

I know that Boomkin base spell damage was altered but that can't be all there is to it with other hybrids also performing that well in comparison.

Yes, it can,it's been said that Moonkin damage was too low. They've also said that they are satisfied about where it is now on several occasions. If our new talents couldn't create satisfying damage without forcing us to pick up every single one of them in order to compete then the only way was increasing base damage.
I am sure your mage had issues, one of them being stuck in the old ways again.

PS: I haven't seen any people having issues with my DPS at level 80 even though on occasional basis I had outdps'd some people.

[EnderAsha]

For his edification then Zappaz could you please give me your unbuffed Spell Damage, Crit % (including spell specific crit bonuses that apply) and haste. I'd also love a link to your spec.

The idea being if i knew what you have for stats and spec I can have him run the same spec and rotation and see how he performs. Maybe it'll make him happy? Maybe he can see the benchmark and I can also see how much +damage you get from popping cooldowns and heroism and consummables etc.

Edit my 3.5% haste on my gear is from items, i guess i technically have 9.5% haste, does Wrath of Air totem stack with Moonkin Aura or does it just override it up by 2 since it is 5%?

[Zappaz]

sure, all numbers with AI and molten armor

spellpower - 1334 fire
spellcrit - 36.16% fire + 2% for pyro
spellhaste - 161

spec is 11/50/0 - Typically focus magic boomkin or elemental shaman in raid, may swap to a 0/50/11 spec if I can convince our other main mage to keep his focus magic and give it to me lol.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...totem&n=Zappaz

armory is up to date besides my boot enchant, switched to surefooted today for the hit and crit since it now affects spells.

As for rotation, stack scorch and spam fireball then anytime hot streak procs, hit the instant pyro.

[EnderAsha]

If you could get the WWS to work or find some way to export the information i'd really like to take a look at it. Also he is very skeptical and I have a feeling might not believe the numbers so I'd like something I could show to him.

I'd like to reassure a few people that they're classes will continue to do solid damage if specced right...it seems i know a few people who are increasingly upset that hybrids are so close to pure DPS in theory and RNG could swing in their favor.

[Ravenblade]

This does more sound like unreasonable angst than anything. I can confirm firsthand that mages and locks are remaining to be competitive in matters of DPS. It's just that DPS won't have that huge slacking range anymore

[Deleted]

I'd like to reassure a few people that they're classes will continue to do solid damage if specced right...it seems i know a few people who are increasingly upset that hybrids are so close to pure DPS in theory and RNG could swing in their favor.

That they'll have to get used too. The hybrid being 30% in front is abnormal though and denotes an adpatation problem to the new patch.

[Razulath]

I ended up second on total damage today, 5 first in BT, had to call it there due to severe lag
But fun to go from Healer to nr 2 dps i have to say, But then again, I have been theorycrafting alot, getting offspec gear, gemming, potting, flasking, fooding etc

[Zappaz]

If you could get the WWS to work or find some way to export the information i'd really like to take a look at it. Also he is very skeptical and I have a feeling might not believe the numbers so I'd like something I could show to him.

I'd like to reassure a few people that they're classes will continue to do solid damage if specced right...it seems i know a few people who are increasingly upset that hybrids are so close to pure DPS in theory and RNG could swing in their favor.

http://wmo.ngacn.cc/combat/600414#realtime Thats the wowmetersonline parse of our brut kill. The site is just like WWS it seems. The combat dps numbers are the actual dps as I waited ~10sec to start to dps for threat. With the parse it actually says I did 3329 dps on the fight.

[luccadeo]

http://wmo.ngacn.cc/combat/600414#realtime Thats the wowmetersonline parse of our brut kill. The site is just like WWS it seems. The combat dps numbers are the actual dps as I waited ~10sec to start to dps for threat. With the parse it actually says I did 3329 dps on the fight.

Wow, look how far down your locks are. That sucks. I can see where pure DPS classes are complaining now.

[Barawr]

Wow, look how far down your locks are. That sucks. I can see where pure DPS classes are complaining now.

I still don't get the complaining. As a hybrid you STILL have to have a whole other set of gear to be competitive in another spec. Yes, they have combined spell power, but the other stats on the gear will make or break healing vs. dps gear. As a pure DPS just remember you can never be asked to heal or tank :P