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  1. #1

    25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Hey guys!

    I have a question regarding the difference between 10s and 25s. I saw that Blizz named 25s heroic. Does anybody know what this means in-game? Is it the same as normal and horic 5-mans? As far as I've read in different reviews the difficulty between the two raid-sizes is about the same. Is it just a poor choice of words on Blizzards behalf?

  2. #2
    Immortal seam's Avatar
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    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    It means you set it to heroic to get in, and that it takes more people (More cordination, Not more skill)

  3. #3

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Aha I see. Just a poor choice of wording then. Thanks for your help

  4. #4

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    from my understanding, if the raid is set on normal, it will be a 10 man. if it is set on roic, 25 man. and just like the current roics, some of the bosses will have extra abilities that they did not have in the 10 man version.

  5. #5

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    That is correct.

    Also, 25man do take more skillz than 10mans. Anyone claming anything else is clueless.

  6. #6

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    I dont know why people keep thinking that more people means more skill, its only harder because its harder to find 25 skilled players and get the 25 to do what they need to do, maybe need a bit of better gear because 25 man drops higher ilvl items, but that doesnt mean skill. In fact they could tune 10 mans to be harder and we all know that if a single player screws in 10 man its worse than a single player screwing in 25 mans. Zul Aman is a good example.
    Have you played heroic shadow laberynth? Murmur figth, unless you are very overgeared (like most people are now with pvp epics) is in fact much harder than many 10 man and 25 mans, requires coordination and fast responses from the whole party. In pre kara -kara gear its very very hard and unless the 5 do everything well, you wont do it. Thats an example where more people doesnt mean more skill.

  7. #7

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Because coordination is a part of "skill". Thus larger raid = more coordination = more skill.

    Funny how the limits in coordiation, communitication and individual awareness/skills is what cause wipes in 25man raids.

    Also the fact that there's a higher percentage of a retard in a 25man raid, than in a 10man raid.

    If you disagree, enjoy your Karazhan epics.

  8. #8

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    I raid, but from my point of view when things dont work, its because a number of players are underskilled or not doing things rigth, what i mean is that its just the % of retarded/underskilled you mentioned what makes it harder, not that each individual needs more skill than in a 10 man, you just need fewer people that play with the same skill and its easier to spot who is doing wrong and tell him, and in most cases they will take it more personal and react faster.

  9. #9

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Have any of you done Naxx 10 and 25? Would be interesting to know how you felt about them. I understand that its allot harder to organize a 25-man raid since you need 15 more players and it puts more pressure on the RL. But how is it for the individual player?

    For instance do you need to avoid fire, jump every 10 sec and run and click that blobby thing in 25s while in 10s you just tank and spenk? Ok kinda weird example but I guess you know what I mean

  10. #10

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    If you disagree, enjoy your Karazhan epics.
    Having done 25 man content and owning a few T6 pieces doesn't give you the right to be a jerk. That said, the following:

    25 man raids do not require more skill from the average raider. The only persons that require more skill for successful raids are the raid leaders, the group composers and in some cases the officers. Unless they have a passive role.

    Having literally done all TBC content I can assure you that 25 man raids in a good group can be easier than 10 man raids. You cannot IDLE in 10 man raids, you can in 25 man raids. You cannot put your char to follow in 10 man raids and get a drink. You can in 25 man raids. One single DC in a 10 man raid and it most likely will result in a wipe. This isn't the case in a 25 man raid, unless a key factor in a certain fight DCs. (eg a dispelling priest at Felmyst)
    success comes in the form of technical solutions to problems, not appeals to our emotional side

  11. #11

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    25 man raids do not require more skill from the average raider.
    Disagree on a very high level.

    25man require much more communication, and so far the encounters are tuned to require much more personal awareness than a 10man.

    But I were also talking about 25mans in general requiring more skill, due to the other points you mention.

    If you were right, there would be far far less retards in the game.

    Having literally done all TBC content I can assure you that 25 man raids in a good group can be easier than 10 man raids.
    Zul'aman Bear Runs required the 10 people to play to perfection, yes.

    Karazhan however, did not.

  12. #12

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Ehrm.... are you comparing Kara to 25-mans....... or am I just misunderstanding you? ZA to SSC/TK or Naxx10 to Naxx25 seems like a better comparison.

  13. #13

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    It would be fair to compare Karazhan with Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon.
    All 3 are the Tier 4 level content, thus about equal difficulty.

    Now alot of people who managed to clear Karazhan, failed clearing Gruul's Lair.
    Simple reason: 25man is harder (for lesser skilled players.)

    Any random spec'ed mage with 61 points in arcane and some tailor crafted gear can clear Karazhan, but they won't make it in Gruul's Lair.

    Been there, seen that.

  14. #14

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    I think it could be other reasons then failing. I think the reason fewer cleared Gruul/Maggy then Kara was because they didnt get the manpower to go in. Getting thoose extra 15 players can be hard if your not in a big guild. I personally didnt think Gruul was any harder then Prince, Netherspite or Nightbane for instance. However the getting extra players was a pain in the ass

  15. #15

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Why? Because you just can't take 15 random people that cleared Karazhan in another guild , it's not like you need skills or anything.

    Oops, see what I did there?

  16. #16

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    Because coordination is a part of "skill". Thus larger raid = more coordination = more skill.

    Funny how the limits in coordiation, communitication and individual awareness/skills is what cause wipes in 25man raids.

    Also the fact that there's a higher percentage of a retard in a 25man raid, than in a 10man raid.

    If you disagree, enjoy your Karazhan epics.
    Meh everysingle time I see yours posts you make me want to slap you. The 25 man raids do not require more individual skill at all, the over all / total skill of the raid maybe larger mostly due to the fact you have an extra 15 players but the average skill of the individual's will be roughly the same.

    Besides that the coordination of the raids is normally done by 2-3 people, the main tank, the main healer and if neither of those are the guild leader.. them.. these are the people who post the tactics on the forums, who pick the groups and assign the tasks, explain the tactics and crack the whip on those who are slacking / doing the tactic wrong. The individual's just need to do there small part of the plan and be aware of the gimmick fire, orbs, conflag, bomb whatever.

    Bottom line is a succesful 10 man player and a succesful 25 player are comparable in skill level.

  17. #17

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nezoia
    25man require much more communication, and so far the encounters are tuned to require much more personal awareness than a 10man.
    Sorry I keep quoting you, but this thread is growing quickly and I'd like people to know what I'm answering to.

    Anyway, I do not agree. It's true that communication is relatively important in raid environment, but this is the case for both 10 man as 25 man raids. But again, this depends on the raid leader.

    To be honest during all raid progress in TBC (from kara to swp) the only ones doing the coordinating, thus (useful) talking were the raid leaders. It's not like a first person shooter, where the whole team has to constantly communicate locations of enemies to each other. No, there's a fixed strategy and the raid leader coordinates the fights. Talking done by others is of the entertainment persuasion, with a few exceptions here and there.

    So, no, I'm sorry, but raiding does not require much communication.

    25 man raid bosses are stronger because you can confront them with 15 more people. But here the dilemma arises: Finding 25 men worthy to bring along is the hard part.
    success comes in the form of technical solutions to problems, not appeals to our emotional side

  18. #18

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    Why? Because you just can't take 15 random people that cleared Karazhan in another guild , it's not like you need skills or anything.

    Oops, see what I did there?
    Sounds like you have never tried to get extra players to a raid.

    But I remember our first attempt at Gruul. 2 weeks of whispering and getting people to sign. Logging on to realise that 4 players are missing and we where 5 short already. Start whispering friends who most are bussy in other instances. A couple of random players join. Some of them leave after a while because the raid wasnt full. After about 1 hour you finally have a 25-man raid of warm bodies. Far from ideal groups but hey at least we can have some fun now. First try at one of the randoms decides to go afk right after ready check. He had an important role so the whipe is inevitable. One of the randoms decides to leave since he wanted free and fast epics.

    This goes on and on but we finally got Maulgar after a few attempts and allot of replacing of players. Was the encounter particularly hard? No not really. But getting extra players was as I said a pain in the ass I do understand why only 50% of thoose that did Kara went on to do 25-mans. It had very little to do with skill. And on that part you seem to agree with me

  19. #19

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    So, no, I'm sorry, but raiding does not require much communication.
    This idea is why alot of guilds wipe alot on certain bosses *cough* Kalecgos *cough*

    It had very little to do with skill.
    If it had nothing to do with skill, why didden't you just bring a random level 70 along?

    You people talk like experience never mattered. What world do you live in?

  20. #20

    Re: 25 = heroic 10 = normal?

    experience != skill. ofc if you know how to do something it's easier. also you don't bring in joe schmoe lvl 70 cause you don't know how good he is or if he even has the gear to do the content. I wouldn't say he has to be "skilled" so much as competent and not dumb.

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