Boomkin > Everything in the game WHY!?

[Ufalah]

How about people start whining when WoTLK hits and you'll be 80 AND raiding ?

Then and only THEN you may whine about our damage output, or to be precise, the lack of yours.

That argument didn't save us paladins from the nerfbat.

[Panoramixe]

Retri paladin burst was over the top at lvl 80 as well. There have been numerous threads about it for ages on the beta forums, don't just think the devs decided one day to play darts and hit "nerf paladins".

[Pyrostemplar]

That argument didn't save us paladins from the nerfbat.

....and rightly so.

Yes, balance at 80 is more important.

No, balance until 80 is not irrelevant.

This remembers me a bit feral druids at start of TBC - insane. Got nerfed and rightly so. Actually they should never have been released in that OP state.

There is a psychological effect on this. If you are weak and get buffed to balanced status you feel happy. If you are weak, get overbuffed and then nerfed into balanced status you feel unhappy. At least the kids do...

[rexthewarrior]

to be honest the only OP thing in the game atm is OP-adins!

[infinitis]

class's that can respec between heal/tank/dps rolls should never compete vs straight dps class'es wow fing fails

[Jasyn]

I heard damage meters are the most important thing in the game.

[Kozikk]

"Pure" dps classes can choose 3 forms of dps, where hybrids only have 1 option if they want to dps. Less QQ

[BlackrazorNZ]

The problem with Moonkins isnt actually a problem WITH Moonkins per se. I have friends who play Moonkins, and i'm rapt that they can finally do competitive DPS with my mage, or our warlocks/rogues/hunters etc.

The problem with Moonkins (and Retadins incidentally) is that they had their DPS buffed, while the pure DPS classes didnt get their utility buffed commensurately.

For example, if Moonkins do identical DPS with mages, rogues, warlocks, etc, lets compare what ELSE they bring the raid, other than just their raw ability to kill bosses.

- Mage : 10% spell crit, Food provisions, and Portals. Spell crit is very powerful, but 1 mage is all thats needed. Both of the others are merely convenient, have no effect on boss fights, and can be accomplished with a single mage.

- Warlocks : Soulstone Res's, Healthstones, Summons. Soulstone Res offers excellent wipe recovery or prevention, and more warlocks provide more res's, so there is a reason to bring more than one. Healthstones/Summons are providable by a single warlock, since Healthstones no longer stack.

- Rogues : 3% crit or 2% physical damage, depending on spec - powerful buffs, but both of which are provided by Ret Paladins and Arms Warriors respectively, both of which are likely to be in any 25 man raid at least. Even in the unlikely absence of the above classes, 1x Assassination and 1x Combat rogue are all that are needed for both buffs, extra Rogues bring no benefits.

- Moonkins : Battle Res, Self Heal, Tranquility, Emergency Healing - See below.

Now i know my moonkin brethren will balk at the latter, but lets face it : with the change from +healing to +spellpower, a moonkin in caster form is 95% as good a 'pinch healer' as a resto druid, lacking only the longevity and versatility. If a healer is in immediate risk of dying, or a lot of healers are down and the boss is at 5%, the moonkin can provide more than enough emergency healing to fill the gap with nothing more than a form change.

Tranquility is a very powerful heal, and every druid brings it, but the moonkins does just as much as a resto druids in situations where a lot of people need a lot of healing - the only difference between moonkin and resto tranquility is the threat (non-issue in raids), and the cooldown. The ability to bring the most powerful heal, AoE or otherwise, in the entire game, is a big bonus for your emergency utility.

Self healing is an oft overlooked benefit. Think of a boss like Najentus where a lot of raid damage is happening. When the 'bubble' is about to be popped, a moonkin can shift out, chuck on a lifebloom, rejuv, and start casting a regrowth or HT, then shift back to moonkin and start DPSing straight away, with their health rolling up to safe levels. Meanwhile, a mage or warlock either has to stop DPS and bandage, or pray like heck a heal lands on them before they get a frost splash (or whatever it's called).

Battle res is self explanatory. For every single Moonkin you bring, you give your raid leader 1 more change to recover from a situation going slightly bad. Being able to res a healer or a top DPSer has often been a deciding factor in raids i've been in.


So anyway, in short my point is not that moonkin's DPS needs nerfing. I LOVE having moonkins in our raids with high DPS. All i'd like to see is some reason to bring MORE THAN ONE of each of the pure DPS classes, just like you have to bring more moonkins. If you bring 6 moonkins, you get 6 battle res's, 6 tranquility casts, and 6 DPSers who can look after their own health pool in a dire situation. 6 mages, on the other hand, gives you 1 debuff, a surfeit of mana bikkies, and 5 extra squishy DPSers.

I dont know about you, but as a raid leader if i was given the choice betwen a total of 500 extra raid DPS, or the flexibility that 5 tranquilities and 5 battle res's would bring me, i'm gonna take the latter every single time.

TLDR version : Moonkin's are EXACTLY where they always should have been - competitive DPSers. All i'd like to see, is some of the stacking utility they bring mirrored into classes whose DPS they now match.

[BlackrazorNZ]

Balance Spec.

It's called 'Balance' because it is about enforcing the balance of nature, not because it it's entire design theme is being 'balanced'...

[alkapown]

imo blackrazor said it all so plz keep your egos out of the game and also about the "balance" in my exp in the 3 years of wow there was never such a thing and proly wont be either so even though i wish it it just wishful thinking (the 2nd thing thats never gonna change is the qq about everything)

[Badeggplant]

Eclipse still sucks.

[Ufalah]

....and rightly so.

Yes, balance at 80 is more important.

No, balance until 80 is not irrelevant.
This remembers me a bit feral druids at start of TBC - insane. Got nerfed and rightly so. Actually they should never have been released in that OP state.

There is a psychological effect on this. If you are weak and get buffed to balanced status you feel happy. If you are weak, get overbuffed and then nerfed into balanced status you feel unhappy. At least the kids do...

Blizzards own statements reflect their opinion that anything that isn't balanced that isn't top level is no concern of theirs. Can't handle all the negatives?

The "balance" Blizzard seeks is based entirely upon the highest level possible. They don't give a damn about level 1-79 balance anymore.

Funny how after ONE day of Paladins they got an ACROSS THE BOARD nerf. They didn't change one thing, they gutted Paladin abilities. No, well lets nerf this and see. It was a full-scale hot-fix nerf that is RARE as hell.

Droods, in TBC on the other hand, WERE ADMITTED by Blizzard to be OP in their current forms but made up some bullshit about how they couldn't fix it now w/o screwing up droods. So they said "wait for the expansion".

So sorry if I don't believe you when you talk about "balance" when it isn't referring to the top level, and again if I don't believe you that Blizzard didn't take the paladin nerfs seriously enough. They did it to us once, they did it again.

I just hope Moonkin don't suffer the same fate. I hate resto-droods, the offical and sponsored OP spec, but Moonkin have suffered enough laughs. Let them keep their fun I say.

[Phage0070]

- Mage : 10% spell crit, Food provisions, and Portals.

- Warlocks : Soulstone Res's, Healthstones, Summons, Curse of Elements

- Rogues : 3% crit or 2% physical damage, depending on spec

- Moonkins : Battle Res, Tranquility, Innervate, Earth and Moon, Improved Faery Fire, Moonkin Aura, Improved Moonkin Aura, Insect Swarm

I had to modify this because you missed so many aspects of what Moonkin actually bring to the raid. Innervate is amazingly powerful due to the increase in spirit regeneration, the increased importance of spirit for DPS classes, and the nerf to potions. Innervate will be able to bring an OOM caster to pretty much full mana as an instant fire and forget which can be cast on anyone in the raid. This is without question the most powerful mana regeneration talent of any caster in the game.

Earth and Moon brings 13% increased spell damage to every caster in the raid, through normal DPS rotations. The only other caster which can provide the same buff is a warlock specced deep into affliction, and even then they take a damage tax because their curse slot cannot be used for a damaging spell. Because of this, moonkin have the most powerful percentage spell damage buff of any caster in the game.

Improved Faery Fire decreases the armor of the target which provides a significant boost to melee DPS, as well as increasing spell hit by 3% for everyone in the raid. Other classes such as shadow priests can provide a similar hit buff through Misery, but that talent is one tier deeper in the tree and does not provide the melee damage increase. If you were to choose between them, the Improved Faery Fire is clearly superior.

Moonkin Aura provides 5% spell crit chance simply by virtue of being there, but Improved Moonkin Aura ALSO provides 3% increased spell haste. That is in essence a 3% increase to the damage of all casters, or healing of healers it effects. If you compared it to the buffs of a shaman it would be superior because it is mobile rather than stuck in one place, and does not require maintenance or mana to maintain.

Insect Swarm, in addition to being a regular part of the DPS rotation of a moonkin, decreases the chance to hit of the target by 3% for melee and ranged attacks. This decreases the damage the tank takes by 3%, and is comparable to the scorpid sting of a hunter. However you will notice that the hunter takes a damage tax by using scorpid sting rather than a damaging sting like serpent, while the moonkin gets the benefits simply by DPSing as usual.


When it comes down to it a moonkin provides vastly more buffs with essentially zero opportunity cost, outshining nearly all other class's comparable buffs simultaneously.

[Ravenblade]

Quite a few fair points made but let's not forget that once Moonkin had all the costs factored in with the result being the most rare spec in the game. People like to see things balanced but they are quick to dismiss something as useless if it due to this the same thing appears weak as pre-TBC and TBC Moonkin. They most likely over-buffed Moonkin (and possibly Ret paladins), actually to compensate and pre-emptively work against minmaxing. Moonkin has still to become an established raiding spec and people are already seeking to prevent that beforehand. The joke spec of this game, the spec being taken last into raids, the spec standing unchallenged for insignificance - alongside with Ret - becoming actually useful. It is too much for some people to cope.

People are missing the greater picture here, at level 80 in raids alot utility is being shared, an Elemental Shaman, a Ret paladin and a Unholy DK is all you need to have a Moonkin giving up quite a share of its talented utility. Yes, iFF sounds great on paper, it's a DPS loss for the Moonkin and the armor debuff could be easier applied by a Feral druid and the spellhit one by a Shadow Priest who actually benefits from doing so personally. Insect Swarm and innate druid abilities will be the only thing left and if those hadn't been a prime argument in the past to bring a Moonkin then it won't be now. Theoretically a minmaxer could come and say: Let's replace the Moonkin by DPS class X and the Moonkin goes home. Especially if the community-wide demanded premature damage nerf goes through.

I see Tranquility listed, let me tell you that I haven't used it much outside the once-in-a-month fkup on Illidan or Felmyst when Chain Heal/CoH wasn't enough. It's more of a dormant utility here, I have it on my bar, collecting dust for the most part. I don't know why people tend to list abilities one against eachother as if they are some sort of currency, either you are in need of an ability or you aren't and see it as bonus. Would you compare PW:S vs. Rebirth? I know I would, PW:S > Rebirth by a mile as it can prevent the need for Rebirth beforehand and you won't see Priests being balanced against that ability or worse: held against them.

I don't mind giving other classes more buffs and utility, I'm playing a Mage, a Priest and a Paladin as characters myself, so I don't really lack the objectivity to say that. But please leave Moonkin be and let it establish itself as raid spec for a bit. You gave Shadow Priests and Enhancement Shamans that chance, even though alot people cried about them as well but noone minded Enhancement Shamans pulling rogue-style DPS on Brutallus in the end. So it's about time that Moonkins get their turn and you - whatever your main pure class is - will survive.

[tar01]

I'm not sure why people QQ about x class been op at 70.

Just a reminder... Before the patch, a retri pala could outdps any class at from lv 55-65. At lv70 retri was a complete failure as pve dps.

Now people qq about retri pala and boomkins at lv70. Wait until lv80 then start calling for nerfs.

[skojten]

Why oh Why is there such a big fuzz about damage meters and how much damage u can pump out. where did the fun and laughs go.
It dosent matter how big of a **** u have, u can still kill big monsters

[Dessan]

I love all this talk about how moonkins shouldn't be able to just swap out and throw down a few heals, sure we can do that in combat if a tank gets stunned and the OT is getting pounded or something, but with all this dual spec stuff coming what's the point moaning? All classes will have the chance to swap role mid raid.
Not need X amount of tanks for an encounter? Let some do dps.
Tanks keeps dying? Let a hybrid choose a resto spec to help out.

I'm loving the changes I've got to my dps as boomkin, I can actually compare with other classes now, still being beaten by hunters and mages and the like too and my gear is just as good as theirs. If anything i'm feeling bad for warlocks, I've heard nothing good about the changes for them and know a few people who have re-rolled or taken up an alt as a new main.

Still trying to find a good spell rotation for now that the Starfire Glyph only adds 9 secs to MF, plus IFF is a huge bonus and I don't see why no one's included it in any rotations here as of yet.

[Dessan]

• IS -> antihit (rarely used before, why should it be SOOO important now?)

• Important because it gives Starfire an extra 3% crit chance. Very nice when used with a Starfire glyph and Nature's Splendor imo..

[BuNNyRespawned]

I noticed something I consider a bit... odd... yesterday.

Shadowmeld in Combat? Wtf? I just click Shadowmeld -> Leaves combat

Shadowmeld changes + Revive = Woohoo for our class, but still... I didn't expect this.

[Dessan]

Yeah they made us our own Feign Death as a racial Restores threat when you re-enter combat if I remember right, and if so it's bugged because I go right back to 0 threat. And if it's meant to work that way then woo Night Elf! ;D