Boomkin > Everything in the game WHY!?

[Peddokin]

Don't complain 'bout our DPS, I know I won't, I love it.. ;D

[Cerajin]

To all the omg moonkin-dps > all-dps whiners, read this blue post:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/11162...-30-build.html

Now stop whining! lol

[neut]

Yes, "Balance" indeed sounds like a pure dps spec, God damn people are stupid

[Pyrostemplar]

I don't understand why people cry if a moonkin DOES the exact 100% damage of a pure damage class. Say you like the spec/abilities of a moonkin more than a mage, you have to choose a mage just because it's not a hybrid to do okay damage? That's bullshit.

If you don't want to dps 24/7, don't roll a pure damage class. You have 3 different damage specs, often providing different utilities to a raid and having different rotations, which is a nice change. A hybrid has ONE dps spec, ONE tanking spec, ONE healing spec, etcetera. You have three as well, they're just different and you know this when choosing what class to play. If you want a hybrid, choose a hybrid but there is only one way to tank, one way to dps and one way to heal.
...

Precisely that choice assures - keeping a good game design - that your dmg will be lower than a class that only specializes in one thing. Likewise, if the game mechanics allowed it, if there were any pure tanking or healing class, your healing and tanking tree would perform at a lesser level - even if slightly lesser - than the "pure" class.

This is not bad. Flexibility is an asset, do not overlook it.

[Pyrostemplar]

wont happen

again blizzard stated there pure dps specs will all do equal damage
if you spec fully into a dps tree even as a hybrid you will do full dps damage

that being said blizzard is doing their best to make everyones dps EQUAL at 80 with same level gear, however one of the things they cant test is how well those classes will scale with newer tiers (even if there are a couple tiers in beta).

Blizzard stated intentions vary a bit as time goes by and according to the target audience. They also can outright lie sometimes. Anyway, it seems to me they have been far more straightforward this time than in the previous disgraceful POS expansion. GC>>>>Karlgan as a comunicator. But despite this, people can be reading too much into that equality, which was actually almost always put in terms of "competitive, close" than actually "equal".

"If you are absolutely equal in all regards however, then the mage, warlock, hunter and rogue should still be doing more damage. There will be plenty of cases where that is not true. However, overall we want a raid leader who refuses to invite those 4 classes to run the risk of having lower dps. Make sense? "
GC

It actually nakes sense, although it is quite a bit general (there are specs withing classes and not all the 4 DPS classe are actual equal in terms of sustainability, survivability and utility).

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Precisely that choice assures - keeping a good game design - that your dmg will be lower than a class that only specializes in one thing. Likewise, if the game mechanics allowed it, if there were any pure tanking or healing class, your healing and tanking tree would perform at a lesser level - even if slightly lesser - than the "pure" class.

This is not bad. Flexibility is an asset, do not overlook it.

The problem being that with the exception of a Mage, there is no single class in the game that can't perform a secondary role at least as well as that hybrid can.

Just because you can respec and regear to do something different doesn't mean you're versatile, versatility is the option to do something different on the fly, going back and starting over isn't more versatile for a hybrid because it's faster than just rerolling.

Nobody will ever pick a hybrid to go to a raid because "They can respec" But they will pick a pure to go to a raid because "They always perform better"

If a class brings something other than their DPS to a raid, then yes, their DPS should be less than someone who offers nothing else, but the availability to respec to a different role simply doesn't count for much.

[Pyrostemplar]

Well, I'm not speaking for other guilds out there, but the guild I'm in doesn't really leave people out just because they play a certain class. We're not a hardcore raiding guild. We take any class where ever we go because we like the player and we just work with what we have. We have fun and could care less if the raid makeup is the most optimal one possible.

Therefore you don't reaaaly need more damage compared to other classes, do you?

Anyway, regardless on how good an hybrid DPS spec is my guild will only take one - if it takes any - to a 25 man raid as a general rule (specific spots are always based more on the person, sign up, and so forth). And only 1-2 (if any) Hybrid as DPS mainspec.

[Pyrostemplar]

The problem being that with the exception of a Mage, there is no single class in the game that can't perform a secondary role at least as well as that hybrid can.

Just because you can respec and regear to do something different doesn't mean you're versatile, versatility is the option to do something different on the fly, going back and starting over isn't more versatile for a hybrid because it's faster than just rerolling.

Nobody will ever pick a hybrid to go to a raid because "They can respec" But they will pick a pure to go to a raid because "They always perform better"

If a class brings something other than their DPS to a raid, then yes, their DPS should be less than someone who offers nothing else, but the availability to respec to a different role simply doesn't count for much.

Nope, that is not true. The hybrid flexibility opens up guild spots, for example. That is why we have more room for druids than warriors in the guild.

All classes bring more than just damage to a raid - at least usually they do. What none of the "pure" classes do is having the ability to perform that secondary role at any decent level except maybe in some very singular encounters. That is more true to the mages than any other class, although I guess the rogue evasiontanking is more an unintented effect than anything else. Pet DPS classes can use them (or conceptually could - I don't keep much up to pair with the everchanging pet reality) for off tanking mobs, but they won't last any significant amount of time against a normal boss.

Main idea is that you should aim for 2-3 players per class in the game (unless one class was specifically tailored to be in a smaller number, something that Blizz seemed to have steered away from), on an average of 2.5.
If you count 2 tanks and 8 healers, you have 15 spots available. 10 for pure DPS classes (4 * 2.5), and you finally have 5 spots for hybrid DPS. With 6 classes fighting for thoses spots.

In the end, the "lose the buff, enter damage" actually will mean - hopefully - less need for specific classes in the game, particularly stacking a certain class. It may also mean slightly less hybrids on average (particularly SPs).

[Gravelchris]

Nope, that is not true. The hybrid flexibility opens up guild spots, for example. That is why we have more room for druids than warriors in the guild.

All classes bring more than just damage to a raid - at least usually they do. What none of the "pure" classes do is having the ability to perform that secondary role at any decent level except maybe in some very singular encounters. That is more true to the mages than any other class, although I guess the rogue evasiontanking is more an unintented effect than anything else. Pet DPS classes can use them (or conceptually could - I don't keep much up to pair with the everchanging pet reality) for off tanking mobs, but they won't last any significant amount of time against a normal boss.

Main idea is that you should aim for 2-3 players per class in the game (unless one class was specifically tailored to be in a smaller number, something that Blizz seemed to have steered away from), on an average of 2.5.
If you count 2 tanks and 8 healers, you have 15 spots available. 10 for pure DPS classes (4 * 2.5), and you finally have 5 spots for hybrid DPS. With 6 classes fighting for thoses spots.

In the end, the "lose the buff, enter damage" actually will mean - hopefully - less need for specific classes in the game, particularly stacking a certain class. It may also mean slightly less hybrids on average (particularly SPs).

You clearly play a pure damage class. Now that pure damage classes have a lot of raid utility other than just their own DPS, they actually buff people properly now. You also mentioned earlier someone who is specialized in doing damage only should be higher (which is silly because if a hybrid specs into a damage tree, that's what they will be doing). Stop hating on hybrids just because you can. EVERY damage, healing, and tanking spec should be competetive and there is absolutely no reason for hybrids to be weaker just because they have the ability to switch to healing or tanking in a different encounter, it's all the same in one encounter and does it really matter how many raid spots you fill with one class? no. Look at specs instead.

I didn't like how there were 800000 warlocks and shaman per raid before. But I suppose you did. Honestly, what does it take to get into your little head that it doesn't matter if you are labeled a hybrid or not, all classes have the ability to choose between three specs, why should pure damage classes get bonuses because their specs arn't the same?

[yellowbiz]

Yes, "Balance" indeed sounds like a pure dps spec, God damn people are stupid

no u

[Calios]

It's all about Druid's getting to good in every possible spec. For example Paladin is good healer , good dps but still tank really don't play well on solo mob tanking. After u take a look on druid , he's very good tank , a very good DPS class , and a very good healer . So imo what's the point of making UBER hybrid class playing as well as PURE specces , or even better ? The idea of game is quite ruined , because the main idea was to create classes that will be weak in such way but better in diffrent . Blizzard created hybrid classes to have all those aspects on quite MEDIUM level , but now Druid is very good or even superb in every specc .

[Pyrostemplar]

You clearly play a pure damage class. Now that pure damage classes have a lot of raid utility other than just their own DPS, they actually buff people properly now. You also mentioned earlier someone who is specialized in doing damage only should be higher (which is silly because if a hybrid specs into a damage tree, that's what they will be doing). Stop hating on hybrids just because you can. EVERY damage, healing, and tanking spec should be competetive and there is absolutely no reason for hybrids to be weaker just because they have the ability to switch to healing or tanking in a different encounter, it's all the same in one encounter and does it really matter how many raid spots you fill with one class? no. Look at specs instead.

I didn't like how there were 800000 warlocks and shaman per raid before. But I suppose you did. Honestly, what does it take to get into your little head that it doesn't matter if you are labeled a hybrid or not, all classes have the ability to choose between three specs, why should pure damage classes get bonuses because their specs arn't the same?

Firstly, pure damage classes always had some utility. From the really low (rogues) to the very high (locks). What was changed was that the buffs (a big part of the utility, but not only), went raid wise, non stacking, and - to avoid the dependency on hybrids - went quite class wide. Class homogeneization in terms of buffing.

Secondly, there are quite some reasons why a class that specializes in one thing should have some advantage (not monopoly) in that activity. In Wow case both in terms of RPG (yes, I do know that CS kiddies don't pay much attention to it) as in class balance.

The rest of the post I'll ignore because it only reflects your own prejudices.

[Eremiel]

Hi! I'm a mage.

I'd just like to say that every single "pure" dps class now has raid utility in all it's three damage trees.

Rogues even have a UNIQUE raid utility THAT STACKS FOR EACH ROGUE YOU BRING.

Let the damn hybrids have their day and quit your whining.

[Panoramixe]

First of all balance is just a name for the tree they thought of ages ago, it just sounds druidish and has nothing to do with being everything in one spec. The spec is all about dps and therefore is a dps spec.
(I demand from now on fire mages are constantly on fire and kill themselves like that, I also demand demonology locks turn into demons to serve the other locks ... all meaningless names nobody should take much notice of.)

Secondly pure dps specs have the benefit they have 3 or more ways to do dps at a similar level, while hybrids are forced into just one rotation.
I have several "pure dps" classes myself at 70 and I'm not afraid they'd lose their raiding spot to hybrids, unless it was my own fault by being a bad player.

[nexonion]

Moonkins are fine, but the trees are OP atm, they shud be nerfed.

/signed by a moonkin

[Iamhewhoismighty]

True our dps is pretty high atm, maybe even need a nerf, (well think the glyph change might be a small one, depending on how it works). But really it quiet depends on how all classes will look at 80. Not gonna say its dfefinately fine, but I've only seena few nax parses, with a moonkin, and on those moonkins weren't top, or far ahead.

Oho no you don't. next you'll be pulling the pally excuse "Everything will be fine at 80"

[Sarevokcz]

It's funny how every class seems OP to everyone else but never their own.

and its even funnier, when other classes find one class utterly weak in some aspect of the game and even give them support.

[Masennus]

and its even funnier, when other classes find one class utterly weak in some aspect of the game and even give them support.

This.

[Bucketojoy]

It's funny how every class seems OP to everyone else but never their own.

I honestly feel that my ret pally is OP. I can solo shadow-labs pulls up to the giant fel-guard guys.

[Veliane]

I honestly feel that my ret pally is OP. I can solo shadow-labs pulls up to the giant fel-guard guys.

I did that on my mage as both fire and frost back at S3.
No big deal.