Tanking Troubles?

[xebtria]

I would be looking forward to some hints/tips for tanking spec and rotation:

some points to my druid, due to armory still not working for my char (character data unavailable - dunno why...)
gear is a mixture of T4 (helm, shoulders, throusers), badge (chest, gloves, back, ring #1, idol (of terror, ofc), crafting (belt), heroic (bracers) and karazhan gear (neck, ring #2). my preferred tanking weapon is earthwarden, with trinkets I were until now pretty unlucky, I use both +stamina trinkets from brewfest, because 90 stam on 2 trinkets is not THAT bad.
so I'm currently at around 19k life (motw, staminabuff, 30 stam buffood), 20k armor (after 3.0, ofc) and ~1900 ap unbuffed.

my talent spec is actually this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzcjRcczAo0x
my glyphs are actually Maul + Frenzied regeneration as major, thorns, aquatic form and unburdened rebirth as minor.

Normally, if I have enough (nearly endless) rage (e.g. at most bosses in Zul aman, because they are hitting hard enough to get ~80 rage every hit), I use the rotation Mangle, than Lacerate and maul spam. as you know, maul is off the GCD, so I use it everytime when the swingtimer is ready.
If there are more than 2 mobs to be tanked (2 works just fine as the maul glyph is hitting pretty hard at the second target ), I simply replace lacerate with swipe.
If I have low rage because of being overgeared, I either use my catgear (less armor and life, a bit less dodge but a huuuuuuuge more AP) or leave maul out of the rotation, so I simply spam mangle and lacerate or swipe.

But I feel, that my TPS is not as high as it could be possible with my gear, I end up at about 800-1200 TPS at low rage, ~1500-1700 TPS at high rage and up to 2400 with cat gear. Beserk is only really usable with high rage, what not always is present. I use enrage whenever I can, mostly together with barkskin, except when I am already 50k upwards in front with threat or when the boss is REALLY hitting hard.

so, what I am doing wrong? I mostly raid with a friend, he is also a feral, but with 6/8 t6, but I see the difference clearly e.g. at Nalorakk in ZA... I'm tanking human form, while he tanks bear form. At humen phase, he has no problem to catch me up at around 90% of my threat, but if he taunts the bear, I really, really have a problem to catch HIM up to already 70/80% of his aggro... I mostly stuck at about 60% of his aggro and only have a chance to get over him, if I already have to taunt...

but most problems are showing up in Heroics or even karazhan. exept malchezzar and Nightbane I nothing tank with tankgear, I tank it with cat gear, because otherwise, i would have not even a change to hold the aggro... a miss at start, a dodge of the hit and pewpew the mage has stolen aggro from me...

any hints, what i MAY do wrong?

thanks
xeb

[Alski]

gear is a mixture of T4 (helm, shoulders, throusers), badge (chest, gloves, back, ring #1, idol (of terror, ofc), crafting (belt), heroic (bracers) and karazhan gear (neck, ring #2). my preferred tanking weapon is earthwarden,

6/8 t6,

thats the difference right there

[Alski]

Erhm, i tanked on my friends char (warrior T6) for the first time 2 days ago. I did 3000 tps (not the whole time ofcourse) on a boss in heroic. I don't see what's your problem... I never played another class then my shaman before that.

You want someone here to tell you the magic code to do more tps or something? Just use the right skills...

druid != warrior

[xebtria]

You want someone here to tell you the magic code to do more tps or something? Just use the right skills...

thats exactly the point. I don't know IF I use the right skills. maybe I do it wrong? dunno...

that's why I asked.

[Guran]

Right skills = Use Swipe, not Lacerate. It does so much damage now it beats Lacerate in threat, mostly because it can crit.

[Deleted]

I am *very* happy about the threat changes, and its been working out great for me. These days, as long as i have rage, ill be at least 50% ahead of the DPS on a boss. While i havent compared with a prot pala, i havent had any problems holding aggro elsewhere.

This is my current spec: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000
Planned for 80: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

*Seriously* whats up with people still taking brutal impact for tanking? When do you ever use that? Predatory Instincts also doesnt add to bear form.

With 3.0.2, my tanking rotations changed. Maul now does MASSIVE amounts of threat, and i usually prioritize as such:

Mangle if off CD
Lacerate if none is on the mob
Maul if i have rage (and i do)
Demo roar if its not up (usually comes up at pull)
FF if lacerate is on target and mangle is off cooldown and i dont have to keep up demo roar (Bear form faerie fire does a nice amount of threat, some 1,4k threat in my gear)

With Savage fury, mangle to maul and rend and tear, maul does massive amounts of threat, and rage is not a problem at all. I only use lacerate to make sure my target is bleeding, and i feel sorry that i only have 1/5 R&T - LK will fix that

Obviously, glyph of maul is mandatory and is pure awesomeness. If i tank two targets, ill be sure to pop a lacerate on the secondary aswell, while spamming mangle and maul against my main target - the maul hit + lacerate on the secondary is more than enough to keep aggro.

For aoe tanking i simply do a mangle on the main target and then do maul/swipe as always.

[xebtria]

Right skills = Use Swipe, not Lacerate. It does so much damage now it beats Lacerate in threat, mostly because it can crit.

lacerate can also crit - at least the initial damage portion.

and I assume that first put lacerate up to 5 stacks (besides mangle and maul spam), and if it is 5 stacks up, switch to swipe spam instead of further lacerate spam, and simply refresh it if it drops in 1-2 seconds?

or does it mean: not using lacerate at all, just mangle + swipe/maul spam?

[Deleted]

lacerate can also crit - at least the initial damage portion.

and I assume that first put lacerate up to 5 stacks (besides mangle and maul spam), and if it is 5 stacks up, switch to swipe spam instead of further lacerate spam, and simply refresh it if it drops in 1-2 seconds?

or does it mean: not using lacerate at all, just mangle + swipe/maul spam?

To not use lacerate is stupid, cause any decent tank would go for R&T at 80, and practice for it before hand. Lacerate can crit, but the threat it does from damage is much lower, and its more of a steady threat bump. As i said above, i dont find it nessecary to stack lacerates up to 5 and then keep spamming it - i only use it these days to refresh itself.

[xebtria]

yeah, thought so.

I think (have to try it out) that I will do best with a rotation like mangle - lac - swipe - mangle - lac - swipe - ... - and after 5 stacks only swipe in between for refreshing.

thanks all

[mgp84]

At your level of gear without 4 PC T6, I would try and not include swipe within any rotation you may have for single target TPS. I on the other hand have been a strong advocate to use Maul like there's no tomorrow, so instead of "Lacerate" spamming I'll go straight to spamming Maul (Picking up R&T and SF). I was a threat whore before 3.0 and even more of a threat whore post-3.0.

[bonecollector]

To not use lacerate is stupid, cause any decent tank would go for R&T at 80, and practice for it before hand. Lacerate can crit, but the threat it does from damage is much lower, and its more of a steady threat bump. As i said above, i dont find it nessecary to stack lacerates up to 5 and then keep spamming it - i only use it these days to refresh itself.

if your in a raid with any warrior/rogue/dps feral you won't even have to use lacerate to get the benefits of R&T

while tanking multiple mobs i don't even bother with lacerate. Waist of GCD. Single target i mostly just stack it to 5 and just once every 10 sec to refresh itself. if you can keep it ticking constantly and just spam mangle/swipe it should help quite abit.

an well if you got the rage which you prb should with the new 3 rage/dodge just spam maul. there shouldn't rly be any normal hits at all if you got enough rage.

[Deleted]

if your in a raid with any warrior/rogue/dps feral you won't even have to use lacerate to get the benefits of R&T

while tanking multiple mobs i don't even bother with lacerate. Waist of GCD. Single target i mostly just stack it to 5 and just once every 10 sec to refresh itself. if you can keep it ticking constantly and just spam mangle/swipe it should help quite abit.

an well if you got the rage which you prb should with the new 3 rage/dodge just spam maul. there shouldn't rly be any normal hits at all if you got enough rage.

I want my lacerate to be up, even in a raid, because it seems pointless that maul should lose a potential 20% damage if all the bleeds drop off. I also like the dot from lacerate - if you get feared or stunned, or the target for some reason stops attacking you because of the above, then as soon as you are not incapacitated anymore, the dot from lacerate will pull it back towards you again.

I dont forcefully stack it to 5 - that will come along nicely by itself. But i dont want to have to depend on other classes to increase my own abilities, if there is a chance that it wont be up for whatever reason.

There are three scenarios though:

Single target tanking
Tanking two
Tanking several mobs

If you are single target tanking, lacerate is great for the bleed. If you are tanking two mobs, your maul will hit both, and then it serves to have a lacerate on both targets. The 2nd target will have the bleed on it, and be hit by +20% mauls, and after lacerate is up on both you can just go nuts with mangle/maul and you'll be sure that no arrant DPS will grab it off you, because he cant follow markings

If you are tanking several mobs, then obviously lacerate is useless. Mangle whenever its off CD and then just maul/swipe.

[Swiftly]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...idge&n=Swiftly

this is the build i have planned for

Lv 80 Spec

Lv 70 spec (current)

i call this a 90/90 spec, if pure tanking spec is 100% efficient and pure dps is 100% damage this is in my opinion 90/90 spec. if you notice i dont have feral aggression & feral instincts which are both good for AE tanking... since demoralizing roar is unlimited and 30% more damage to swipe is nice i find my self AE tanking just fine.

i run with few high dps characters form my guild. the first day of the patch my guild's alliance with 2 other guilds ran The Eye raid. a quick run to Void Reaver, just to see how the numbers stand. as a feral dps up to Void Reaver i was #2-3 in dps they was like OMG feral druid in the top 3. but i ended up being one of the tanks for Void Reaver. so my damage was dropped down to #8 if i was a pure DPS i am sure i would have been #1 but as far as tanking i did just fine...

as far as tanking my high dps mage i run with that is also one of our raid leaders always notice i am high on my dps as a bear, also when i am tanking. especially in heroics like shattered halls where i am AE tanking a lot. my tps is usually 1900-2200 easy and if i have unlimited rage that bosses usually give i am topping off at 2700-2900 tps. most dps is usually 45-60% of my threat. while AE tanking depends on if they are burning down 1 mob at a time or AE dpsing. but i can hold aggro find so i am not worried as tanking / dps in PvE.

sure for PvP wise i do lose feral instincts stealth ability and feral aggression's ferocious bites damage. even so my FB is still in the higher 3k. but like i said i gave up some of my dps side for my tanking side. a 90/90 spec.

[ajthebest1]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...idge&n=Swiftly

this is the build i have planned for

Lv 80 Spec

Lv 70 spec (current)

i call this a 90/90 spec, if pure tanking spec is 100% efficient and pure dps is 100% damage this is in my opinion 90/90 spec. if you notice i dont have feral aggression & feral instincts which are both good for AE tanking... since demoralizing roar is unlimited and 30% more damage to swipe is nice i find my self AE tanking just fine.

i run with few high dps characters form my guild. the first day of the patch my guild's alliance with 2 other guilds ran The Eye raid. a quick run to Void Reaver, just to see how the numbers stand. as a feral dps up to Void Reaver i was #2-3 in dps they was like OMG feral druid in the top 3. but i ended up being one of the tanks for Void Reaver. so my damage was dropped down to #8 if i was a pure DPS i am sure i would have been #1 but as far as tanking i did just fine...

as far as tanking my high dps mage i run with that is also one of our raid leaders always notice i am high on my dps as a bear, also when i am tanking. especially in heroics like shattered halls where i am AE tanking a lot. my tps is usually 1900-2200 easy and if i have unlimited rage that bosses usually give i am topping off at 2700-2900 tps. most dps is usually 45-60% of my threat. while AE tanking depends on if they are burning down 1 mob at a time or AE dpsing. but i can hold aggro find so i am not worried as tanking / dps in PvE.

sure for PvP wise i do lose feral instincts stealth ability and feral aggression's ferocious bites damage. even so my FB is still in the higher 3k. but like i said i gave up some of my dps side for my tanking side. a 90/90 spec.

No offense, but I don't see how you can justify that spec. Its horrible. Its not made for tanking, pvp or dps. You have to remember that hybrids don't exist anymore.

Shreding attacks is completely useless when you have a bloated tree (for tanking). Sotf is probably the best talent feral druids have (stats wise). Feral instincts is a must to even consider aoe tanking. Naturalist > Natural Shapeshifter. Primal precision can be aruged to be our greatest threat tool.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...uskwood&n=Haps

Thats my spec. You can probably afford to lose 2 from RnT and put them in iLotP. This spec is solely for tanking.

[FangoTehmango]

Alrighty, I think I have enough info to make a new test spec for tanking, just to play with it a bit. But I still have a couple things I need to know.

1. Does the mitigation from Protector of the Pack apply in addition to armor, or is it applied after armor.

2. With the new numbers on Survival of the Fittest, do bear tanks need anything with +defense rating any more, or can we change all those yellow slots to more offensive gems?

[Chilkoot]

*Seriously* whats up with people still taking brutal impact for tanking? When do you ever use that?

There's more to tanking than just swinging at 5 bosses in a night. Bash is a must for a proper tank against trash. You want mitigation? A mob can't hit you if it's not swinging or casting. Interrupting AoE and mind-control channels, stunning MC'd players... yeah, you don't do any of that, I guess. Growl down? Charge and bash something hammering your casters.

If you want to be a dumb meat shield just for bosses, yeah, you can ignore brutal impact. If you want to be a dynamic and effective tank for the whole instance, keeping bash close is a necessity, and brutal impact makes it all the better.

[xebtria]

No offense, but I don't see how you can justify that spec. Its horrible. Its not made for tanking, pvp or dps. You have to remember that hybrids don't exist anymore.

Shreding attacks is completely useless when you have a bloated tree (for tanking). Sotf is probably the best talent feral druids have (stats wise). Feral instincts is a must to even consider aoe tanking. Naturalist > Natural Shapeshifter. Primal precision can be aruged to be our greatest threat tool.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...uskwood&n=Haps

Thats my spec. You can probably afford to lose 2 from RnT and put them in iLotP. This spec is solely for tanking.

OoC is completely worthless for tanking. if you have enough rage, you don't have that much autoattacks anymore, so it does not really proc that often. but beserk is too good to leave out - mainly for a lvl70 spec...

[Chilkoot]

OoC is completely worthless for tanking. if you have enough rage, you don't have that much autoattacks anymore, so it does not really proc that often. but beserk is too good to leave out - mainly for a lvl70 spec...

^^ QFT. Maybe useful for heroics or something like Kara where you're not getting hit and trying to fight against other's burst (but even that's a stretch). Berserk is an insane threat monster with big nasty teeth. Go get it.

[Natgul]

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...akkar&n=Natgul

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

This is my actual spec, and Hybrid DPS-PVP Equip.

Last Night, with my guild, in a BT Run, i've M-tank with the other 3 (2 War - 1 Pally), and i have reach the Max Threat every time, on every thing, remove aggro from war and pally after 20 sec's on a non-targeted Trash.

With Glyph of Maul active, i have touch 4th place on damage done, and all raider have BT-MH-badge Equip.

Now Druid is incredible for tanking, Single or AoE.

[Chilkoot]

1. Does the mitigation from Protector of the Pack apply in addition to armor, or is it applied after armor.

Armor, PotP and barkskin's mitigation applies in a sequence of calculations, not a single additive one. So if you're sitting at 70% armor and 12% on PotP, a physical attack that hits for 1000 will be reduced to 300 by armor and then to 264 by PotP. Barkskin active will reduce that by an addidtional 20% to 211 damage (it doesn't matter what order you apply the reductions in, as long as it's a sequence. You could calculate it in any order, like barkskin->PotP->armor and it would always come out the same). These calculations hold true for non-physical mitigation from resistances and PotP/barkskin as well.

2. With the new numbers on Survival of the Fittest, do bear tanks need anything with +defense rating any more, or can we change all those yellow slots to more offensive gems?

Nope - drop your defense like a hot potato. It still gives you a chance to be 'missed', but it's not worth the points when you could be stacking stuff like DPS, dodge, stam or armor, all of which are cheaper in a world of fixed itemization points.