Welfare raiding.

[Advent]

This is entirely incorrect.

Thank god. If they made boss health too low, with such a high-level of dps in Wrath, bosses would drop too fast, they'd be far too easy to burn down.

[blahblahnameblah]

For a Feral tank, the Welfare Epics are better than anything you could farm from heroics (75+ badges items excluded) or 10-mans and FAR better than the Clefthoof set I no longer need because Welfare resilience makes me uncrittable.

SotF makes you uncrittable by itself at this point...
Have tanked all the way to Felmyst post patch with no resilience or defense on, no problems.
(guild main tank took a week off, I usually off-tank and on some bosses throughout TBC MT'd).

and I didn't quote it, but I do find it sad that you never even stepped foot into ZA, the zone pre-patch (and especially pre-t6 gear) was very fun to tank, at least if you were going for the timed event... and berzerker's call is still one hell of a trinket.

[anyaka21]

In terms of instances and heroics, I could care less. Anything that will help blitzing through those faster is a good thing IMO. Whether that just less mobs or a shorter instance, either way it's good.

In many ways, the same thing in terms of raiding. The last thing any guild wants to see is 1.5hour trash pulling to get to the next boss. Think kara after curator (when it was opened) or breaking into sunwell pre-nerf. Those were mindnumbing runs and definitely didn't need to be that long. And no, I'm not saying 1 or 2 trash groups and then boss, but definitely not 30 or so trash groups like the post curator run.

In terms of difficulty though, I like a good challenge, that really is a challenge, and not just because of RNG. My 2 favorite fights in the game have probably been Vashj and Kael.

[Awaked]

I'd prefer a more challenging WoW like vanilla WoW raiding used to be because it was a personal challenge as well as a challenge for the guild. Idc whether or not I have better gear/experience than others, but I do feel a larger sense of satisfaction as well as accomplishment completing something thats actually hard (and I would see it's hard by how other people struggle).

If people cannot see the same stuff due to work/family/w.e then they can still try to see the stuff they CAN do. If not, then maybe their goals need to be a little more realistic.

What if a single-player game came out that required too much time and effort to play cause it was so damn hard to see everything? Would everyone send an e-mail to the company complaining about it? No...

They just wouldn't buy the game.

See a point? If not... *shrugs*

[DruidFTW]

MY E-PEEN GOES FLACCID WHEN OTHER PLAYERS HAVE THE SAME GEAR AS ME.

I DEMAND TO BECOME A UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE SO I CAN SIT AFK IN SHATTRATH ALL DAY WHILE SCRUB CASUALS CAN INSPECT MY GEAR AND WISH THEY WERE AS SKILLED AT DRAGON SLAYING AS I AM.

hitting the nail on the head right there...

[couplemate]

....I must admitt I feel like I gotta put down my OPINION, the nurfed stuff really is ... too easy AS MUCH AS that can help people it really really does take away that sense of accomplishment... For example you (or just our guild:S) no longer need a lock tank for Illidan... DPS HIM DOWN.... wheres the sense in accomplishment.... wheres the difficulty

I really really hope that Blizzard ups the Difficulty level of Heroics/Raids or else it really is just boring... ROFL TRUTH HERE I nearly fell asleep in BT (well i guess I was on the side of passing out) :S only after one of the leaders over vent said "where is..." dead true. I really couldnt give a S**T about casual players I know they will still retain there places in WotlK anyone with 1/2 a brain can tell who a casual player is and we just dnt G inv them nor shall we in WotlK we look for Dedication/Loyalty and in those 2 contexts comes intelligence and a willingness to sacrafice things in your daily life to raid with the guild.

IMO someone that is 'hardcore' is Obssessed!! with his class (like me) literally live and breath it, ppl that know EVERYTHING about there class, ppl that will correct others over there flaws (wether it be math or combat) and if this hardcore player didn't know something about his class he would be GOBB SMACKED on wondering why he didnt know earlier and then put all efforts into correcting himself.

Ppl that look OUTSIDE the square to make themselves better at there role in a raid (example I am an Enchanter Y not to make gold not to get the uber Recipes, but ONLY for the ring enchants same with JC, ONLY for the Xtra better Gems it provides for crafters only) ... so you really can tell the hardcore from the Casual and all that is put too the test b4 you join good raiding guilds.... casuals anyone ROFL

P.S. Oh yeah I forgot, for the people that agree with me yer thats nice HOWEVER for the ppl that disagree ITS TIME TO SHRED THIS TXT xD thats rite look for spelling errors flame me for using my OPINION etc try and make me feel bad plz xD! it helps

[Derlan]

From my (albeit limited) understanding, Its entirely likely that much like TBC, people are going to spend a lot of time bashing their heads against the early raids, 1 month of simple raids so that the other 10 million people have a shot at seeing the content before it becomes irrelevant isnt that big a deal. The people who had bragging rights about it (those who beat it before you could just go to a website that would show you exactly where to stand and what to do to beat the encounter) have their bragging rights, this last month is just about letting people see the pretty pixels.

[Knighthonor]

Wow hasnt just been around for the past welfare epic year , its been around for 4 years and we have already seen it over the years add new contents and the content before it gets easier . Wotlk raiding isnt gonna be any easier then when bc frist got released . The only thing they did to make it easier for more people to see the content was change all 25 man raids to be done as 10 man aswell . They know how to make money, thats all that needs to be said .

Naxx at 80 seems much easier then what Kara was at 70.

[Liardy]

Without the attunements, with the pvp gear, the badges gear, the imba crafted gear etc. the amount of tards in high end raiding is higher then it ever was before. I personally don't feel for it, even tho it's nice for the casuals stuff like a 150 badges xbow being arguably better then a drop from archi or illidan is just retarded if you ask me.

[Advent]

I'm pretty sure it was to stem the flow of elitists that were being oppressive to the aspiring raiders.

For example: Mage 1 has 4pc t6 and does let's say 2k Dps on accomodating fights. But one week he and a few of the other core raiders go off on vacation with their families. Instead of taking that aspiring mage 2 raider in t5 gear who's always come equipped for the encounter with all consumables and necessary items for the fight, they take the one with gear similar to Mage 1 to do a farm raid of BT. Purely because he has the gear. Putting in the t6-level gear was a way to make sure Mage 2 and Mage X are on equal footing and are instead judged on the 'content of their character' rather than the level of their gear.

[Skippert]

People ALWAYS will complain about effort/reward balance, why? Because they're too stubborn to see both sides of the story, too selfish to step in the politician's shoes: If gear differences are too big people start complaining the game is too heavily gear based and not skillbased. If gear differences are smaller so it comes more to skill instead of gear, then people complain they don't get rewarded enough. In other words: there's always quite some people that complain because the game isn't exactly how they want it. Two words: SUCK IT.
Sometimes you have to choose between two evils, sometimes you have to balance two disadvantages and two advantages. IMO, Blizzard did an oké job at balancing skill and gear depedance in both PVE and PVP.

I was a hardcore raider in Vanilla WoW as well 2-3 years back (also wasted 7-10months of reallife). In those days, if Blizzard would change the game like this, I'd also think "I don't get rewarded enough, them noobs can get the wellfare epix". In THESE days I don't have time to play 3-5 nights a week anymore, 1-2-3 at most. I don't have to spend all night anymore for unreliable crapdroprate of essence of water/fire etc. I spend a few hours and know I can get epic item with x hours of effort. I think it's fine.

25ppl raiders will still get higher quality gear, the difference has just become smaller. Game gets relatively more skill based than gear based, while there's still a small gear level difference for that little extra edge. Fine.

Highend geared noobs in highend guilds? If they're noob, their gear won't compensate. I see it more like: you don't get drawn back by gear as much anymore cus it's rather easy to get, so if you got decent skill, you can join a decent guild. It adds flexibility, just like raidwide buffs, two talentspec system etc. are gonna add more flexibility to this game. I'm not easily satisfied by Blizzard, but I like to think optimistic about this change. In the end it's about having fun raiding or PVP'ing with ur mates, I think that will be no problem.

[Avermra]

BT and Hyjal have not been endgame for over 8 months now. Blackwing Lair has been pugged like that as well.

This game is getting both less skill-oriented and gear-oriented in terms of PvE. Blizzard's focus right now is establishing both popularity to raid instances by being more forgiving on content, whether it maybe time constraints or difficulty (lol at this choice of word) of raid instances, while still being able to maintain the gap between the more dedicated raiders and casual raiders through unique achievements and rewards (Satharion with all 3 drakes up, ZA 45 minute timer, etc)

And just to play the elitist attitude, how many people complaining about omgnotgettingrewarded has killed muru before the first real nerf? (aka 10% hp nerf, not the pushback thing that completely owned hunters)? Because a lot of the same people cry about nerfing contents they can't beat, but also cry when contents they can beat get nerfed....being hypocrite much?

[Cobrakai]

the heart of what the op was saying (i think) was that the fun from raiding came from the challenge of the boss, and the gear that came as a reward for downing a challenging boss.

i dont have a problem with casual players seeing content as long as the players in question have the requisite skill to actually progress.

im for less time spent in dungeons. less trash, or less health to the trash. bosses are the point - thats where the fun is.

if raiding in wotlk is going to be dumbed down the the point of barely needing half a raid awake to down a boss, thats not fun. its not about an epeen, its not about DA EPIX, its about satisfaction of doing something that requires at least a little skill and coordination. that doesn't make it exclusive to casuals, imo. if you are a casual and think that it does, guess what - you're probably really bad at WoW, in which case, no, you shouldnt necessarily be entitled to the best gear and end game content.

just my two cents.

[Cobrakai]

And just to play the elitist attitude, how many people complaining about omgnotgettingrewarded has killed muru before the first real nerf? (aka 10% hp nerf, not the pushback thing that completely owned hunters)? Because a lot of the same people cry about nerfing contents they can't beat, but also cry when contents they can beat get nerfed....being hypocrite much?

i agree - but i think what we're talking about is the dumbing down of instances to the point of barely needing more than 15 actual awake bodies to down a boss. post "first-nerf" muru was still difficult, and tuned in such a way that people still couldn't afford to make mistakes. muru now is about as hard as downing akama. the relative drop in difficulty between the two nerfs was not the same.

also regarding heroics - i personally dont care if they get nerfed. its not raiding content, nor should it be equated to raiding content.

[Someshta]

I get that Blizzard wants everyone to be able to see the raid content before expansion. Though with their history of sucking up to "the casual" I am wondering how the WotlK raiding environment will turn out. I now see alot more guilds engaging in 25-man raiding which is good. But when Blizzard acknowledge how alot more people now suddenly wants to visit their raid instances - will it then cause the general dificulty of raid instances in WotlK to drop to this mind-numbing level? The heroics are already estimated to ~30mins.

"Sucking up to 'the casual'"? You have to understand that the vast majority of the players doesn't feel like spending four-five nights a week raiding but still want to see end-game stuff. If you made the long journey to level 70 only to get stuck trying to beat the anonymous Hex Lord Malacrass, it feels pretty agonizing when in reality you really want to kick Illidans and Kil'jaedens butt.

And to the people who are whining about not having the only epics on the server anymore: does it really matter? The sense of having achieved something will still be there with heroics or 25mans. Your gear will still be alot better than mine.

Oh and btw, don't listen to people saying Naxxramas will be easy - it's been tuned down for beta just like the leveling exp requirements were.

[Tankette]

TBC was over when the patch went live.

[lalartu]

Translation:

"I tink im da uber l337 and me no wan deez NOOB playerz tu get me epix!"

"I meanz id iz lik wellfair, dey juzt giv dem away?!?!"

"GG Blizz I go Kancel my account nuw k thx bai."

If you had a business (thank god you don't) would you cater to 98% of your customers or 2%? Answer me honestly, then stfu.

[Heat]

Oh and btw, don't listen to people saying Naxxramas will be easy - it's been tuned down for beta just like the leveling exp requirements were.

I've read that several times now in this thread, anyone got a reliable source ?

One of my fears is, that it stays as it is on BETA, which would be a major disappointment. Please make it so at least it isn't puggable once you hit 80. Naxx25 that is. Don't care what they do with 10-Man raiding

[nazrakin]

I read that several times now in this thread, anyone got a reliable source ?

One of my fears is, that it stays as it is on BETA, which would be a major disappointment. Please make it so at least it isn't puggable once you hit 80. Naxx25 that is. Don't care what they do with 10-Man raiding

There is no reliable source on it because its BS. What blizzard has said is that they want it to be an easy mode introductory instance. They expect the instance to be cleared in a matter of days.

In fact, Blizzard has flat out stated that they don't intend to make any instances as difficult as Sunwell. They hate the idea of guilds spending months or even weeks on a single boss. Instead, they'll challenge players with "bear run" type optional content.

[anyaka21]

have you done any other fights?

those are both pretty much rng based, something like felmyst is fun.

I've gone all the way through sunwell. Not that it's that difficult now, so it's hard to really compare the 2 at this point.

I enjoyed Kael and Vashj more I think because there were some RNG stuff, but for the most part it was about understanding them and knowing how to deal with them that made it interesting. Felmyst is more about rinse repeat, and now it only takes 2 waves to kill her.

As a point of note, our guild downed felmyst pre-nerf, got twins to 5% before the patch. After that, M'uru took us 4 attempts to down, and 2 days on Kil'jaedan to take him down.