WTF

[Offhand]

JotW in it's currant state was far and away OP. Spamming CS, DS, judge, consecrate and exocism, I ended fights with full mana, no pots, nothing. Let all the other mana classes do that and then we can talk.

I could walk into a 3v1 in mixed blues/epics and if divine shield was up, GG three people. Same could be said about LoH.

PuG'd gruuls in the same set of gear and in PvP spec. Ended up top damage followed by another ret. Followed by full t5 rogue/mage. No boomkins were present.

At 70, ret is completely unstoppable. If you're barely pulling off kills right now... wow you suck.

[Moar Pew Pew]

The difference between Ret ooming and other mana users ooming is that we are melee, they are range. Look at enhancement Shamans, do they OOM? No. It is not mana that determines it, but being ranged or melee.

[Offhand]

The difference between Ret ooming and other mana users ooming is that we are melee, they are range. Look at enhancement Shamans, do they OOM? No. It is not mana that determines it, but being ranged or melee.

OK, explain the unstoppable part now ;D

[Moar Pew Pew]

OK, explain the unstoppable part now ;D

What exactly do you mean by unstoppable?

[Tigercat]

Not much any more, now that ret is approaching a balanced state instead of the ridiculously overpowered form that you've tried to defend in the past.

[silverveign]

There is no longer int on melee dps gear. Blizzard introduced the concept of the blue rage bar and it was honestly a great idea. It limited the ret pally to cool downs, much the same way I have to manage my energy. The system was comparable and in honesty is fair given the fact the only other blue bar melee user never runs out of mana. (Enh Shammy)

Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to take a look at the raw numbers and realize that something is wrong. 15% base mana returned by spending 5%. Ok that nets 10%, awseome! A CS costs what, 8%, a DS costs 12%? Consecrate is a whopping 22%...

Consecrate is easily 12-15% of the damage done by a ret paladin during a fight. They no longer have the mana to even lay down a consecrate, on top the of fact their seal and judgment damage was raped by 20%.

With Blizzard saying the PvE DPS is great, then they turn around and nerf them so far in to the ground it's sad. Especially since they were nowhere near the 5% to pure classes Blizzard promised, hell they were at the bottom of the leader boards. (with spriests being the only ones really that much worse off in the DPS department)

[Moar Pew Pew]

Not much any more, now that ret is approaching a balanced state instead of the ridiculously overpowered form that you've tried to defend in the past.

Ret was never rediculously overpowered. Very strong? Yes. Killing someone in one stun was too much, but hitting the regen is the wrong path.

[Deleted]

In pvp some ret paladins are really too string atm. In PvE: not so much.
But we are not the only ones. Some mages, moonkins and warriors are insane as well. But I guess ppl are used to that and not much complaining about that. When a pala kills you...that is unheard of!
And paladins at the top of dps-meters? That is crazy as well, even if the mobs are all undeads? Imo no, that is perfectly normal.

But I guess we will have to see if the nerf goes live and see if it gets as bad as it looks.

[Evilmaniac]

IMO Prot spec is the only spec paladins even have to fall on if ret breaks. Which i still consider more boreing than healing

[pheonix33]

am i wrong but arent they doing this for level 80, like theyre doing this in BETA still, these changes, so its not bad, i dunno i could just be a noob, but you know, if theyre evening stuff for 80 and theyre seeing numbers at 80, not 70 like most pally noobs seem too focus'd on, i dunno, just a thought, you know since theyre balancing stuff at 80 maybe this change was a good thing? who knows, guess since you cant 1 shot ppl at 70 anymore you'll qq? i dunno, yess i trollz

[Boobies]

Divine plea won't help very much, divine storm + crusader strike + judgment will = 25% of our mana pool, subtracting the 15%, every 10 seconds we use 10% of our mana pool. Popping divine plea here will negate the next two rotations. Mathematically, after around 1 minute and 20 seconds, we will be oom, popping a mana pot will restore most of our mana at this point, but it'll only be enough to last another minute or so.

pvp-wise, we are FUCKED. We have to cast multiple things outside of our damage rotation + backup heal every once in a while, so divine plea has to be timed very carefully.

Judgments of the Wise was supposed to be blizz's answer to having us share gear with wars + dk's and not have to itemize ret pally sets with int, too bad by nerfing it, we'll lag behind in scaling compared to everyone else due to not being able to use a good chunk of our abilities so we can conserve mana.

A lot of the damage nerfs were warranted, though I think blizz overreacted and nerfed seal of command (not its judgment, the proc) too much.

[Evilmaniac]

am i wrong but arent they doing this for level 80, like theyre doing this in BETA still, these changes, so its not bad, i dunno i could just be a noob, but you know, if theyre evening stuff for 80 and theyre seeing numbers at 80, not 70 like most pally noobs seem too focus'd on, i dunno, just a thought, you know since theyre balancing stuff at 80 maybe this change was a good thing? who knows, guess since you cant 1 shot ppl at 70 anymore you'll qq? i dunno, yess i trollz

L2 read before live servers the beta was scaled at what we were seeing before this big nerf QQ an blizz said our dps was good and it wouldn't top the meters compared to the most skilled pure dps classes and since this is a nerf in the dps chain here its gonna be a big nerf up there so instead of comeing 4th-12 with tight compitition the on damage meters we'll be dead last without anyone seeing us as competition.

[pheonix33]

eh i just feel like cartman, your tears are so sweet, they taste so good.

[Bewbslól]

It's Burning Crusade all over again.Sigh...another year of humiliation.

[Nest]

"Blessing of Might (Rank 8 ) and Greater Blessing of Might (Rank 3) now increase AP by 306. (Up from 305)"
A big buff for Pala's, I smell nerf for that buff.

[kadaji]

Divine plea won't help very much, divine storm + crusader strike + judgment will = 25% of our mana pool, subtracting the 15%, every 10 seconds we use 10% of our mana pool. Popping divine plea here will negate the next two rotations. Mathematically, after around 1 minute and 20 seconds, we will be oom, popping a mana pot will restore most of our mana at this point, but it'll only be enough to last another minute or so.
(point N1)
pvp-wise, we are FUCKED. (this is point N2) We have to cast multiple things outside of our damage rotation + backup heal every once in a while, so divine plea has to be timed very carefully.

Judgments of the Wise was supposed to be blizz's answer to having us share gear with wars + dk's and not have to itemize ret pally sets with int, too bad by nerfing it, we'll lag behind in scaling compared to everyone else due to not being able to use a good chunk of our abilities so we can conserve mana.

A lot of the damage nerfs were warranted, though I think blizz overreacted and nerfed seal of command (not its judgment, the proc) too much.

i'm a paladin myself i know how to play (before patch 3.0.2)

yes especialy when ALL RAID WISE BUFF ur mana is still at 100% hence you are NOT oom. unless u are stupid enough to spam holy light. i'm pretty sure u are not on beta so ye... also stop using fucking seal of lolz command (if u are alliance) and use godamnit seal of blood/martyr and blizzad also stated that JUDGEMENT should be the last thing u do for dps.

point N2
i've being respecc in all 3 tree's i did pvp arena at different rating (but stuck @ 2.1 k all seasons but i've being slacking :>) we are SAME AS OTHERS CLASSES at lvl 80 just get skill dude. and being oom is the part of arena. some fight will be long against skilled players.

[Vertue]

It's Burning Crusade all over again.Sigh...another year of humiliation.

Not for me, I will not take this shit. As I said, this shit goes live, I go bye. Nice knowing you all...

[thilicen]

TO THE GROUND
WHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH WOOOOOOOOSH PAWWWWWWWW!!!!!11

[Vertue]

I just wanted to say, do you see the amount of people on here saying, go back to healing or tanking? WTF do you think we did throughout the entire tbc or vanilla 1.0? Maybe some pals would go back to the weakest healing tree out there or tanking that is also affected by the nerfs. I would have to agree pallies did need some nerf, but unless you are blind you can not refuse to notice that the blue went COMPLETELY OVERBOARD. They didn't nerf retribution paladin, they NERFED PALADINS as a class. The changes they made is going to affect every single spec, holy - prot - ret. So screw you and your go holy. And about blah blah blah has also been nerfed. We have been nerfed since vanilla wow and now almost INTO wotlk. Name ONE class that had one tree that has been raid unviable since Vanilla wow. OR a class that had two trees useless till mid tbc... And when I said useless I mean they can not do crap as what they are intended for. Pure dps classes don't count cause all your tree do the same damn crap. Hybrids are different, when they screw one spec up you have two choice, one play a completely different role... 2, reroll. Well anywho I think the time has come to quit wow anyways, it's been too long and my heart is getting too weak for this shit.

[Boobies]

i'm a paladin myself i know how to play (before patch 3.0.2)

yes especialy when ALL RAID WISE BUFF ur mana is still at 100% hence you are NOT oom. unless u are stupid enough to spam holy light. i'm pretty sure u are not on beta so ye... also stop using fucking seal of lolz command (if u are alliance) and use godamnit seal of blood/martyr and blizzad also stated that JUDGEMENT should be the last thing u do for dps.

point N2
i've being respecc in all 3 tree's i did pvp arena at different rating (but stuck @ 2.1 k all seasons but i've being slacking :>) we are SAME AS OTHERS CLASSES at lvl 80 just get skill dude. and being oom is the part of arena. some fight will be long against skilled players.

1. What the hell do you mean by "yes especialy when ALL RAID WISE BUFF ur mana is still at 100% hence you are NOT oom"? If you mean that with full raid buffs you won't be ooming, you're wrong. Mana spring and blessing of wisdom combined is around 150 every 5 seconds, though that changes what I wrote slightly, you will still be ooming long before the boss fight is over, especially if you use anything outside of the three abilities I listed. Also....judgment for the last thing we do for dps? Uhh, that's how we regen mana, when it was off gcd it was also a part of our dps rotation in raids, so that combined with your poorly written argument leads me to believe you really don't know what you're talking about here.

2. Before this patch, while underpowered by a slight amount, we were competitive, now in the arena we won't have the mana to use our new toys whereas everyone else.... you get the picture. So now instead of ooming after 2-3 minutes, we'll oom in 1 or less unless we hold way back, but if we do so, we won't be able to put out the pressure needed at lvl 80, which means the healers have more breathing room and so on. Also the fact that if this change makes it to live, we'll be the most vulnerable class-spec in the game to mana burn from the least (rank 1 SoC + crusader strike not costing too much mana meant we could still dps decently at low mana) due to two mana burns being enough to make our mana only last for 10-20 seconds.