Spiritual Attunement

[Ntrails]

Also if your not using all your abilities to the full extent to make battles easier or even doable and just dpsing then you probably shouldn't be in the raid in the first place.

As a shadow priest. If I have to mass dispel - it nerfs my mana. If I have to self shield - I will go oom in under a minute AND lose DPS. If I have to dispel I lose a GCD and therefore DPS.

If you do non DPS tasks, you lose DPS, get used to it?

[Rodec]

Sorry. I'll reiterate:

Now let's add defensive abilities
Cleanse - is 6% of base mana -> Healers do this
Sacred Shield is 12% -> This is why you have healers
Hand of Sacrifice 6% -> No need
Hand of Protection 6% -> Some one over aggro'd? Bad tanking
Hand of Salvation 6% -> see above
Hand of Freedom 6% -> Vash, maybe, but even then it tended to be holy pallies.

If you use ANY of these abilities you are sacrificing DPS, as you should be. Same as a caster like a mage decursing on Archi loses DPS.

Hammer of Justice - 3% -> Do you think a rogue who has to kick is doing max DPS? No. Get used t it.
Consecration is 22% -> I agree you should be using this and modelling with it.
Exorcism is 8% -> Situational, depending on boss, see where it comes from.
and Holy wrath is 20% -> pass >_>

Bear in mind that all the other classes modify rotations for mana conserving. You don't want to?

Giving up DPS is never a problem seeing how everyone is forced to do it. It's the fact that doing any of these hurts our mana far to much to the point where we can't use basic abilities to DPS mana should always be a problem I agree but it shouldn't be such a burden that using anything else besides DPS shouldn't make it plummet to the point where using all of our mana regan is needed at the same point of time.

[Bigblueox]

I'm adding variables where multiple of our abilities are being used seeing how in most cases if a healer is forced to do something else it causes much more problems then a DPS doing and seeing how my scenarios will happen can happen on multiple bosses as opposed to the break you get on felmyst makes it a terrible comparison.
And if everything ends up being find and dandy where none of these are needed then sure mana wise where fine. Seeing how things can happen that will not help you even remotely and secondary abilities are needed to help manage things your resource will go down. Also if your not using all your abilities to the full extent to make battles easier or even doable and just dpsing then you probably shouldn't be in the raid in the first place.

if you really think my Felmyst example was a bad comparison, do you really want me to go through and name every single boss fight where melee dps gets a break? seriously now...

you're right, if you're not using all of your abilities to help the raid, you don't belong. and i completely fail to see how using situational cooldowns is gonna be a mana drain for a ret paladin. i think it's because there is no reason for it to be.

[Rodec]

As a shadow priest. If I have to mass dispel - it nerfs my mana. If I have to self shield - I will go oom in under a minute AND lose DPS. If I have to dispel I lose a GCD and therefore DPS.

If you do non DPS tasks, you lose DPS, get used to it?

Again losing DPS isn't a problem seeing how everyone experiences it but our mana regan isn't enough to keep our dps sustained without using SoW constantly this being the major problem. I know there are times when a class should stop doing what there doing and wait for some mana. This usually happens though in a prolonged scenario with high costing multiple abilities. I don't mind going OOM if I toss in a heal a hand or spell or anything but the fact that we lose more mana then gained by just dpsing without including anything else is in fact a problem.

[Bigblueox]

i'm gonna prematurely declare that this thread debunked the former calculations that have ret paladins up in arms. the indisputable truth is that every class on one fight or another is going to have mana issues, and ret paladins are no different. i won't say that they have it easier, but i will say that they by no means have it worse. encounters with low aoe damage are typically short fights, so even if the previous theory on ret mana conservation were true, ret paladins are able to go around 5 minutes sustaining their mana with no help from anyone else in the raid (according to the calculations in question).

feel free to keep the conversation/discussion/argument/point-proving rolling, though.

[Offhand]

right but what i'm saying is that, regardless of the new NYI stuff to ret, damage and healing taken shouldn't change, so the numbers now would be valid for the future. my only intention in this thread is discussing the mana regained from SA and anything to possibly trigger it.

Exactly. But that will vary from fight to fight. SoB is the only real marker by which SA regen can be predicted. Assuming you're a good melee dps and stick to the bosses ankles the whole fight. The only consistent number can be SoB (and things like felmyst will happen).

Say I ate a cave in during a lag spike or general stupidity? Say I ate a cave in because I was going oom? Say a rogue landed next to me and didn't cloak out of shatter? There are an infinite number of variables on any given fight that will determine SA mana return.

However, the catch-22 we have uncovered is that SA mana only gets better as more people screw up. Plus your healers really need to be on top of things. Raid wide damage varies from fight to fight so the best guesses for SA mana would need to be based on individual fights alone.

[Bigblueox]

Exactly. But that will vary from fight to fight. SoB is the only real marker by which SA regen can be predicted. Assuming you're a good melee dps and stick to the bosses ankles the whole fight. The only consistent number can be SoB (and things like felmyst will happen).

Say I ate a cave in during a lag spike or general stupidity? Say I ate a cave in because I was going oom? Say a rogue landed next to me and didn't cloak out of shatter? There are an infinite number of variables on any given fight that will determine SA mana return.

However, the catch-22 we have uncovered is that SA mana only gets better as more people screw up. Plus your healers really need to be on top of things. Raid wide damage varies from fight to fight so the best guesses for SA mana would need to be based on individual fights alone.

sorry, but i don't understand what you're trying to tell me. everything you said is valid, but it's not contradictory to anything i've said previously. all i'm saying is that if you hypothetically got data from every boss fight in BC, broke down SA mana return per fight, you will find that the mana returned to ret paladins due to the inevitable damage they take will sustain them for the majority of encounters over 5 minutes, if not all, assuming all goes well and they're not forced to heal the warlock tank on Leotheras at 1% because everyone is a failure and died to bleed effects.

[Offhand]

In other words I'm agreeing with you ;D

I feel the JotW nerf makes paladin work more like enhance shamans for mana regen. You're gonna use very little mana per spell, but in a small mana pool. Mana isn't "infinite" like before but sufficient enough to outlast the average progression fight.

I am allowed to agree with people on the internet, right? I know it's a rare occurrence. ;D

[Bigblueox]

In other words I'm agreeing with you ;D

I feel the JotW nerf makes paladin work more like enhance shamans for mana regen. You're gonna use very little mana per spell, but in a small mana pool. Mana isn't "infinite" like before but sufficient enough to outlast the average progression fight.

I am allowed to agree with people on the internet, right? I know it's a rare occurrence. ;D

lol, by all means. usually when i see some TL;DR with a previous comment of mine quoted in the post it's usually to tell me i'm wrong. =P

[Rodec]

In other words I'm agreeing with you ;D

I feel the JotW nerf makes paladin work more like enhance shamans for mana regen. You're gonna use very little mana per spell, but in a small mana pool. Mana isn't "infinite" like before but sufficient enough to outlast the average progression fight.

I am allowed to agree with people on the internet, right? I know it's a rare occurrence. ;D

It's an extremely rare occurrence.
Second - Mana should always be a problem I just find it wrong that unless seal of wisdom is up most of the fight our mana regan isn't that great.
Third - What does TL;DR means I've seen it so many times. :S

[Bigblueox]

It's an extremely rare occurrence.
Second - Mana should always be a problem I just find it wrong that unless seal of wisdom is up most of the fight our mana regan isn't that great.
Third - What does TL;DR means I've seen it so many times. :S

"too long, didn't read." i used it jokingly there =]

[Offhand]

Alternatively, if you're running oom. Switch to SoW for long fights like a hunter would go to viper.

There are way more ways around the mana issue than at first glance the more I think about it.

[Ntrails]

Alternatively, if you're running oom. Switch to SoW for long fights like a hunter would go to viper.

There are way more ways around the mana issue than at first glance the more I think about it.

Agreed - and that is assuming it will be needed. On top of everything else you will regain MORE mana at higher gear levels, so once you are doin g harder encounters with more raid damage and more SoB damage to yourself etc etc you'll regain a ton more mana allowing a more powerful rotation. Win!