Great points on ret situation

[EbGbZ]

get over it
you are not supposed to be overpowered, nor underpowered. If the nerfs have gone over the top, Blizzard will adjust it

They have never fixed it before... 4 years of waiting and they just nerfed our whole CLASS not just 1 spec... If they cannot get it right in 4 years why should paladins be gimped for another minute?... Mississippi public school education anyone?

[ShinKosh]

Like I think everyone else, I think the JotW nerf was to heavy.

Im not blind or one sided enough to say that it was perfect at 33% either, yes we could spam all day long and we where topping Damage meters but with both the 20% seal and judgment nerf AND this new concept that we have to watch out mana bars like a hawk and not spam everything under the sun then our damage will take a nose dive.

Im seeing people going on about how in a 25 man raid Mana return will be ok, you'll be buffed to high heaven, hell Ive even saw a few people saying it will be ok when you start using +mp5 consumables (oils, elixirs foods).

It’s a load of crap.

Maybe the math is sound, maybe the numbers are right but why does one Melee Spec have to do all this while the other melee specs will be taking melee consumables just to be raid viable?

As for PvP, with no Int on our gear we are going to have a piss puddle for a mana pool. No reserves like Hunters and Shamans. Any class with a mana burning move will tear us up with minimal effort. You don’t see Hunters getting a buff to tranquil shot that bleeds a warriors rage bar, heaven forbid a guy with a two hander and plate would be able to keep going for longer that a strong fart.