This is proof that JoTW nerf will hit us hard in PvP - wtb skills.

[yiptastic]

Shamans, especialy enhancement ones, are really still vulnerable to being kited. Once someone start you kiting you are helpless, only thing that can help you from not being kited are your wolves (3min cd) and trinket (2min cd) and that all. If you use all of those thing you are sitting duck, trust me. Not to mention to get any mana from shamanistic rage, you need to be in melee range and do nice about of hitts to actually get any mana that worth of mentioning + you have just 15 secound for it. And since mostly you are forced to use this while you are kited, or frost bited, etc to reduce incoming damage so then most of the times you are unable to get mana at al from this ability.

And being mana burned as enhancement shaman is easy. Since you have to use shocks in your dps rotation and if priest is not your target you cant ES him and interrupt. Yes grouding totem once a while, but helpless against caster teams since it can absorb any spell and easily mana burn can be missed.

is it really that bad? I teamed up with my enh shammy as holy pally before doing 2v2, and we never had much problem against casters or drain teams. locks are jokes.

If we ever see priests, he will take care the priest and I'll stun someone else. usually, it's enough to put the priest in panic mode. we didnt play arena long due to RL shit, but we did pass 1850 and could probably hit 1900.

but yeah, I definitely agree we won't be the worst... as long as someone heal us, we won't be oom. That's our insurance.

[mae]

So what you are basically saying, that....... you CONSUME mana during a fight, but only when you do more than just dps?

Let's see, I see mages consuming mana during dpsing, same for warlocks, same for moonkins, same for ele and enh. shams, actually the same for all other dps-mana classes. Also true for heal classes and even the tank classes, which use mana, rage or runes and runic power during a fight.

Hmmmm, maybe ......... just MAYBE it was the ret-palas going out of every fight with a full mana bar the ones were something was wrong?

this

[Karsh]

OH NO A CLASS WITH MANA USING MANA SOMEONE CALL A GM THIS MAY BE A BUG

[Nightik]

is it really that bad? I teamed up with my enh shammy as holy pally before doing 2v2, and we never had much problem against casters or drain teams. locks are jokes.

If we ever see priests, he will take care the priest and I'll stun someone else. usually, it's enough to put the priest in panic mode. we didnt play arena long due to RL shit, but we did pass 1850 and could probably hit 1900.

but yeah, I definitely agree we won't be the worst... as long as someone heal us, we won't be oom. That's our insurance.

It depends on the enemy setup and yours, how they are experienced and stuff like that. Iam not saying paladins are just fine in all ways, i cant really say that since iam not playing one, but so far i played with other ret paladins in arena i have to say they are ok. Things you stated here and problems are not just paladins problems but all mana-based classes. I highly recommend to wait until lvl 80 and then we can say how it is. Blizzard said many times that classes and skills are balanced to lvl 80 and i take it like this. If i wouldnt take it i could already start how shamans are underpowered again and we need more buffs but iam optimist and curious how it will really be. So i be you, i would be ok about this and just chill and enjoy content events and current build on live servers =)

[Jerazznor]

Quote from: yiptastic on October 26, 2008, 05:52:28 PM
MMage got my point clear.

the problem in PvP is:
1) we can be kited
2) divine plea gives a good chunk of mana back, but 15 sec and being dispellable means it will rarely stay full duration, (unless you are fighting retarded teams)
3) we can be mana burned while being kited.
4) once we are oom, dirt dry, we will stay at the bottom because we can't judge. because judgement can't compensate the basic dps rotation, we can't effectively burst our target.
5) our class evolves around burst. no burst = no kill. no kill = you die. you die = you lose.
6) our mana will be horribly low compare to other mana using classes. So, we have less buffer room to deal with mana drain. It doesn't take a lot of cast to dry us up.

1) BoF
2) other classes have the same problems
3) like other classes
4) like other mana based classes
5) adapt, elemental shaman is about burst as well
6) you cant really say that until lvl 80 and after some fights

1) BoF has a 25 second CD and is easily dispelled. Paladin's are still very easily kitable. BoF also is only up for 10 (14 talented) seconds, meaning 1/2 the time a ret pally will be kited even after using BoF.
2) You are right, everyone is subject to dispels, but Ret is probably the most effected by it.
3) How can you kite a ranged class? You can LoS them, but that does not allow you to drain them. So you are blatantly wrong here. If you are talking about shammies, they have shocks and grounding totems along with a mana pool that is at least 2.5X bigger to help prevent the destruction.
4) The only way to make other mana using classes go oom is after they have done all of the damage their pool will allow. The way to make ret go oom is mana burn 5 X and laugh as he runs around auto attacking.
5) Yes ele relies on burst, but again, they have mana to do their burst.
6) It is well known that ret will have the LOWEST mana pool in the game. Our mana will be 5-6k, less than at lvl 70. So 12 seconds into a fight we can be completely burned and useless. Sounds like fun.

You are an ignorant person who does not belong on forums where people are posting constructive thoughts and using evidence. ----> Rogue forums that way.

[Karpalo]

Again getting kited is every melee classes problem, not just paladins.

[Opai]

fact you are not a warrior you have mana ofc you can get mana burned all classes with mana can but they are not whining like you retrilol does you are so pathetic

[Nightik]

5) Yes ele relies on burst, but again, they have mana to do their burst.

Once again they can be mana burned as well. And if you are focusing on other guy but not priest you cant really react on his mana burns. Ground totem is useless since it can absorb any spell and can be as well wanded down and earth shock how i said before is primary skill in our dps rotation so is cant be p all the time and be ready to interrupt mana burn.

You are an ignorant person who does not belong on forums where people are posting constructive thoughts and using evidence. ----> Rogue forums that way.

Sorry i dont have a rogue. I stick to play my restoration shaman. And if you would read all my topics and not just pick some what fits into your story you would actually see my point. But it is ok i know it is not your fault.

[Opai]

yey whining about kiting ? i guess you havn't try play warrior against a mage then no blessing of freedom there or clense try that and come back and whine about kiting , yeah i can charge him frostnova intercpet blink, yes i have hamsting but so do you have your stuns

[Lamnent]

This is the point.

We were not OP in PVE, we were damn good, but no OP. (I have a 2s-3 geared ret pally, I know my Sig is my rogue, he's my oldest character)

Being able to EASILY burst 3/4 of any classes health in less than 6 seconds with just 1 or 2 crits is crazy, and then in comes the Hammer of Wrath. Still left is the Bubble and Repentance, by the time those are consumed Hammer of Justice is back in the game and there it goes again.

Anyway, point being, a Ret Pally if he's not retarded can 2v1 or 3v1 many classes right now, and then throw out Holy Lights with no problem at all because JotW gives back so much mana. We shouldn't be able to do that without running OOM, a 7k heal (with 2200AP) and 1,700 ticks after that on crit? WAY too much with all the CC and protection we have.

Righteous Vengeance will be great DPS in PVP and PVE, it just won't kill anyone during a HOJ, thank Science.

[sgtwaffle]

So what you are basically saying, that....... you CONSUME mana during a fight, but only when you do more than just dps?

Let's see, I see mages consuming mana during dpsing, same for warlocks, same for moonkins, same for ele and enh. shams, actually the same for all other dps-mana classes. Also true for heal classes and even the tank classes, which use mana, rage or runes and runic power during a fight.

Hmmmm, maybe ......... just MAYBE it was the ret-palas going out of every fight with a full mana bar the ones were something was wrong?

Never, EVER compare a Melee Class to a Caster Class. Just because Retribution has a mana bar does not justify being compared to a ranged caster class.

[Hawkmight]

but the problem still exists. in PvP, you will be mana burned, you will get dispelled. If you got stunned and drained, you will be oomed. If there's a hunter and a priest, your divine plea will pretty much be dispelled...

if you are oom to the ground, you can't use judgement, which will affect your dps. We don't have special ways to close our gap with our target, and because most of our mana replenishment requires melee distance to be active, we are pretty screwed in the long run.

you know its funny. the same people who are complaining that we have a little extra mana to heal in areanas are the same people who are complaining that we dont need either a MS/gap closer/snare... all because we had burst and can cleanse and heal. The fact that they even romotely compare us to a pure casting spec show how retarded they are. Mana for any other intel class is going to be 15k and up but ours is around 5k. So now we cant to damage (its funny how blizz said we were doing the same damage over time then nerfed are burst and our ability to do damage over time) cant heal, and have no viable utility

even if they gave us a MS on CS its pretty much useless in this state

[thayn33]

So no one will give pallies AI, GotW and Kings? And the mana regenerating talents of other classes somehow don't apply to pallies?

Besides it on the PTR to be tested, if the nerf is to much it will be changed...

Unless we are questing with a raid group then the answer is no. Pvp be dammed I dont care what happens in arena or BGs. But look at it this way. Every one but ret pally has a ranged attack. a way to pull single targets away from a group. A ret pally by the time you get close enough to judge you are already in aggro range and the mob is charging towards you. And 50% of the time thats going to also pull the group he is with. So will we have enough mana to take out the 3 or 5 mobs? or will we go omm and find ourselves face to face with a spirit healer. I think the later will be most likely. How many ret pallys will there be lvling to 80? very few I think since with all the nerfs it will be hard for us to compleat quest and kill mobs.

[Nightik]

you know its funny. the same people who are complaining that we have a little extra mana to heal in areanas are the same people who are complaining that we dont need either a MS/gap closer/snare... all because we had burst and can cleanse and heal. The fact that they even romotely compare us to a pure casting spec show how retarded they are. Mana for any other intel class is going to be 15k and up but ours is around 5k. So now we cant to damage (its funny how blizz said we were doing the same damage over time then nerfed are burst and our ability to do damage over time) cant heal, and have no viable utility

even if they gave us a MS on CS its pretty much useless in this state

Say about somebody is retarded only shows whats trully in your head...

Iam out of this topic since people are starting with personal attacks just becuase of they think they are right.

[Rel]

Again getting kited is every melee classes problem, not just paladins.

Blatently hasent been reading but no its alot differenet.

[Karpalo]

How exactly mutilate rogue avoids kiting better than retridin?

[Rel]

How exactly mutilate rogue avoids kiting better than retridin?

The fact the topic was about mana and being drained whilst kited means its alot different.
so your saying its worse for a Muti rogue to be kited whilst taking damage and no drain than a paladin is being drained and taking damage?

its not the same at all, atleast once you reach a target you can do so me damage with ur ever lasting energy :<

[Ntrails]

Yes. It hurts you hard in PvP. That was the point. You can no longer go on for ever without a care.

In PvE I am seeing 25 man raid regen as being enough to keep up a good rotation.

PvE>PvP ;-)

[Ghrim]

Never, EVER compare a Melee Class to a Caster Class. Just because Retribution has a mana bar does not justify being compared to a ranged caster class.

You mean ranged mana classes like enh shams and in a way feral druids? Yeah, those two have no problems at all.....

[Rel]

Yes. It hurts you hard in PvP. That was the point. You can no longer go on for ever without a care.

In PvE I am seeing 25 man raid regen as being enough to keep up a good rotation.

PvE>PvP ;-)

Its not even about going on forever its about being able to go on longer than 1 minute :<
and lies!

PVP>PVE