Paladin Gear, why no intellect?

[Gigthedin]

Your math is just taking what Devs had said. If you actually did the math you would see that Divine Storm cannot actually be properly implimented into a long term rotation without a DPS loss. For it to be properly worked in you would have to skip DS every other, other time and mentally timing that would be taxing.

First, we need to find the total mana spent per second (in percent), so we take the cost of a spell and divide it by the cooldown. (I'm assuming you have improved judgements)

CS: 8/6 = 1.3333....
DS: 12/10 = 1.2
Judgement: 5/8

CS + DS + Judgement = 3.158333...

So using each ability every time it is off CD will cost us 3.16% of our mana per second. Now we need to find out how much mana we will be getting back from JotW per second, which will be found by dividing the amount of mana gained by the cooldown of judging.

15/8 = 1.875

So each second we will be gaining 1.9% mana per second from JotW alone, which means we only need about an extra 1.1% of regen per second in order to have near infinite mana while maintaining our rotation. JoW will be granting 1% every now and then (I'm not exactly sure about the proc chance and such on it at the moment) and we will also have Replenishment, so our normal rotation should be sustainable. Also, this doesn't factor in Divine Plea which we will have at 71 (25% mana every minute), nor does it take into consideration the set bonus of t7 which is an additional second off of the Judgement cooldown, which boosts the mana per second of JotW to 2.143% (although mana consumption is also raised to 3.248% per second), and I'm also not taking into account Benediction, which will of course lower mana consumption.

Edit: With Benediction, our mana consumption per second drops to 2.8425%

[Chrysanthemum]

Ok...rather than calling you names or blaming other classes/Blizzard. I will explain this in a very calm and friendly manner.

All loot has an item lvl on it. The number determines how much stat points an item gets. Lets say its ilvl 100 (numbers not exact but to prove a point) it will have +50 stam if it has 1 stat, 2 stats maybe +30 stam and +17 Str, 3 stats +20 stam +15 str +10 Agi. Point being, the more stats added onto a single piece of gear, the more you lose. +Int is not a valued stat for a physical dps class...so it does not need to be on gear. There are other ways of getting these classes (hunter, shaman, pally as far as physical dps mana users) mana back. Primary source being talents...Blizz may also factor in raid buffs for some things...but talents is most likely.

In the end, You benefit more by having dps stats and not mana stats on gear.

Uhhh.... NO. It's actually the exact opposite of this. Stam just costs less than other stats (around 2/3 of as much). A more accurate example would be a piece of gear has +50 str, OR an item of equal item lvl has +35 str AND +35 Agi.

As for DPS, rotations involving DS,CS, and Judgement. The math is pretty simple really, just take the mana cost of all those abilities (and since spells are now based on base mana you can take the values from this very site.) add them up, then subtract any talent cost reductions and you have a rough estimate of how much mana you'll spend per cycle (it'll be off due to CD's and such, but as i said it's a rough estimate). From what i could tell, we spend about 25% of our base mana per cycle(i'm including a bit of CD calculation here), but only get 18% back from JotW. Of course, this isn't including Replenishment, but in order for replenishment to make up the difference you're total mana would need to be 3 times larger than your base, which it won't be as you'd need to stack int to do that.

This is assuming you judge light, which in all likelihood you'd be judging wis over light so that your spell DPS can maintain either A.) a higher DPS cycle, but more mana intensive or B.) contiue their current cycle longer. If we include Judging Wis the amount of total mana you'd need would only need to be 1.5 times larger than your base, which will ONLY happen with full raid buffs, and I'm not entirely certain it would even then as I haven't done that math yet.

To the above poster, JoW has an internal CD of 4 seconds (or is supposed to, i'm not sure it really does.)

Edit: Also to the above poster, that's some really nice math there and much more accurate than my own.

[Astanmos]

socketing int gems just increase the mana pool and when you spend that mana become useless

whut?
holy pallys can use plate, mail, leather and cloth spellpower items
elemental and resto shamans can use mail leather and cloth spellpower items
resto and balance druids can use leather an cloth items
why they have to use ap gear?with no int no mp5 no spi and no spellpower?

Ugghh I hate seeing people in lower gear than they should have.
If a pally is wearing cloth for the extra SP, roll a friggin priest.

[shockpally]

Ugghh I hate seeing people in lower gear than they should have.
If a pally is wearing cloth for the extra SP, roll a friggin priest.

Dont hate the player hate the game. It isnt the players fault that the better item is a lower armor level. In PVE when there is a tank to hold agro what does a paladin HAVE to wear all plate for. They arent going to be taking damage and if they are plate wont save them from a boss or Raid level mob anyway.

There was a time when the CE hood was the best healing headpiece i could find. So i used it. Any player who doesnt do what is best for their own character is gimping the groups efforts IMO.

The lower Armor types also have better itemization due to armor type.

[Mimir]

So they have more item points to devote to dps stats, and so they can make gear that's good for pally, DK and Warrior DPS specs.

[TheOniwaban]

So why doesn't ret paladin gear have intellect? We still have a mana bar when we spec ret and every other class that has a mana bar has intellect on their gear. I know theres a reason behind it, but I never really read it because I didn't plan on playing my paladin.

Because you want to be more like dps Warriors.

[Iselian]

I actually think holy pallys aren't "screwed" as so many say, but the exact opposite: Holy paladins are going to get the best deal in Wrath!

After all, who else will roll on plate gear with spell power?

[Phr057]

Because you want to be more like dps Warriors.

I think DPS warriors want to be more like us now.

[Ivresse]

Well, to avoid the silly answers like, 'Ret pallies wanna be like warriors' and 'because ret pallies r dum' and 'Blizzard r lazy' and smeg like that, there are 2 reasons:

1) Because Retribution paladins share DPS gear with Warriors and Death Knights now as part of Blizzard's new 'Gear to suit multiple classes and specs' policy, since warriors and Death knights don't want intellect either. This way, Warriors, Paladins and Death knights can all roll on the same item, so there's less risk of constantly sharding items that a particular class spec has already got (let's face it, how many previous Retribution items that originally had intellect got sharded each time it dropped?). Also, by reducing the number of items that drop from bosses thanks to the itemisation changes, the chances for each item to drop increase significantly, so you won't have to constantly farm the instance to get that item you want.

2) Each piece of armor has a certain amount of itemisation points that each stat fills up (the higher the level, the more points that can be used on each item). By dumping a load of intellect on a retribution paladin's items, the points used to provide that intellect are dropped from another stat, for example Strength. This significantly reduces the item's DPS provision potential, since Intellect isn't really useful for the melee damage you cause.

3) You have Judgements of the Wise now to restore the mana used on each attack you made. So you don't really need any more intellect because the mana you have will be restored quickly (unless you were a numpty and just burned out all your available mana on attacks like consecrations and Holy Wraths and stuff).

[Apostolic]

First, as a ret paladin stacking STR will in the long run increase your damage. This was also true in BC.

Second with the latest Nerf to JotW, I ran a full BT clear last night with my t6 geared guild. I was still able on (most of the bosses) to maintain a full mana bar while spamming CS, DS, Judgment, HW and Exorism while maintaining a 1700 DPS for the night. I was still in the top 2 dps (Demo Lock #1). On all bosses I was still #1 in damage. The only time I ever went out of mana was when we where chain pulling trash mobs. (Things where dying so fast getting a Judgment off sometimes was impossible)

I think the key to maintaining you mana is to take the damage from SoM/SoB + the glyph that make Consecration 10 sec long rather then 8 (Less spamming of the spell same DPS).

I believe in WotLK the damage taking from SoM/SoB will cover the mana issue (it is being un-nurfed to 95% of the damage). The damage taken from SoM/SoB if you think about it has been increased. Melee, CS and DS all proc SoM/SoB so you are getting 1 extra self inflicted damge per rotation. (And for you paldins that spam FoL or yourself, make the macro to cast FoL on the mobs target, don't heal yourself, you want that mana back)

I have not sat down an done the math, this was all coming from the raid last night.

[Bullshifter]

So why doesn't ret paladin gear have intellect? We still have a mana bar when we spec ret and every other class that has a mana bar has intellect on their gear. I know theres a reason behind it, but I never really read it because I didn't plan on playing my paladin.

There's good responses in here, I just wanted to clarify something. Feral druids don't get intellect on their gear either, and they have a mana bar. The reasons are essentially the same as for ret pallies though, gear sharing. It's cool, it'll be ok. The benefits of gear sharing are going to outweigh the negative aspects of it.

[Karpalo]

If you would have int on your gear then you would whine "Why warriors got more ap than we do in our gear?!"

[Krakkenbus]

So why doesn't ret paladin gear have intellect? We still have a mana bar when we spec ret and every other class that has a mana bar has intellect on their gear. I know theres a reason behind it, but I never really read it because I didn't plan on playing my paladin.

warrior gear

[Mothhive]

So why doesn't ret paladin gear have intellect? We still have a mana bar when we spec ret and every other class that has a mana bar has intellect on their gear. I know theres a reason behind it, but I never really read it because I didn't plan on playing my paladin.

Warriors have a rage bar but we don't get rage on our gear. Hell, we start with 0 rage while you start with full mana! I think you've got the better deal. That being said, I'm all for giving ret pallies more intellect. God knows they need it!

</obvious sarcastic trolling>

[jonny1313]

Shouldn't really be that big of a deal in WoTLK, which is all that matters right now anyway. At 71 we get Divine plea that will probably keep any pally from going oom.

[Space Troll]

Basically what I see from this is Holy Pallys get screwed because they are the only Plate healers in the game and Resto Druid and Shamans get screwed because they are the only Leather and Mail healers in the game and Balance Druids get screwed becasue they are the only Spell Power dps leather wearers in the game.

Now they just need to make a AP->Spellpower conversion for Holy Pallys, Resto Druids, Resto Shamans, and Balance Druids and everyone should be able to share gear equally.

Resto Shamans can/will use any mail spell power gear they can get, and they use essentially the same stats as Elemental Shamans do. They're trying to move Resto Druids and Balance Druids towards the same direction as well, Balance will just have to socket for Crit chance or spell power or w/e they want.

Holy Pallies and Ret Pallies are however the ones who are left out without a partner of gear.

Enhancement was in the same boat in TBC where they would want str on mail gear and that was nearly impossible to get. So they switched them to AP based on Agility, to share gear better with Hunters.

[Serai]

There's good responses in here, I just wanted to clarify something. Feral druids don't get intellect on their gear either, and they have a mana bar. The reasons are essentially the same as for ret pallies though, gear sharing. It's cool, it'll be ok. The benefits of gear sharing are going to outweigh the negative aspects of it.

and since were on that road, just like paladins, feral druids now have a mana returning talent, improved leader of the pack returns 8% of your mana every time it procs, this is not so fast as a paladin, but a feral doesnt need that much anyway

[Matthias893]

I've scanned through this thread and am curious why no ones mentioned divine plea so far. I was of the understanding that that was a new skill available to all paladins and intended to combat the lack of int. on ret/prot gear. Is it still being implemented? If so you'd have 25% of your total mana regained every minute at the cost of 1 GCD a minute, with the only downside being 15 seconds of reduced healing, which doesnt matter to ret pallys all that much. Personally I liked JotW the way it was and 15% seems low to me, but i don't think its a deal breaker and think it still helps with alot of ret mana issues.

[Eremiel]

math tells me you can sustain CS, divine storm and judgement without seeing a dip in your mana. (that's excluding raid buffs). So even then theoretically you can throw in consecration and occasional sacred shield + FoL.

Really? Math tells you that a rotation costing 12% + 8% + 5% and returning 15% should be able to be kept up indefinitely without seeing a dip in mana excluding raid buffs?

Your math is wrong.

[Swampmoose]

Second with the latest Nerf to JotW, I ran a full BT clear last night with my t6 geared guild. I was still able on (most of the bosses) to maintain a full mana bar while spamming CS, DS, Judgment, HW and Exorism while maintaining a 1700 DPS for the night. I was still in the top 2 dps (Demo Lock #1). On all bosses I was still #1 in damage. The only time I ever went out of mana was when we where chain pulling trash mobs. (Things where dying so fast getting a Judgment off sometimes was impossible)

We full cleared BT as well last night and I never went OOM even on trash, spamming consecration on trash and all boss fights. During trash I just consecrated, DS, and tab targeted any mobs I could get a judgment off on before they died like you stated. Mana was no issue whatsoever.

I don't see any problems at 80, but I am not on Beta. I would like to see some Beta raid numbers to see how things are playing out. None of this target dummy nonsense where people say they OOM after 1 minute. I can do that at 70 on a target dummy with the bonus Int on gear.