Change HoJ and Bubble, not our burst!

[Keelie]

The problem is Bubble and HoJ. We need burst. Without a MS or snare to apply pressure, our only chance to kill a lot of teams is through coordinated burst. People dying in the length of an HoJ? Blizzard reduces the damage until people don't die in the HoJ. Is that really the answer? Why not remove HoJ? It won't hurt PvE Paladins and you can give us a nice spell interrupt on a 10 second cooldown instead. This way, people can respond by trying to kite us and using instant-cast spells. The interrupt is the only thing I'm asking to change - to get rid of HoJ for it. I'm not asking for MS, or snare or Holy-Charge. I'm asking that our damage not be nerfed into the ground (which I see as a possibility) and that Blizzard fixes the real problems that allow someone in crap gear to take out someone in S4.

With 20 (or even 30) second HoJs at 80 (HoJ/Bubble/HoJ), people will cry and Ret damage will get nerfed yet again when it isn't the answer, making us useless in PvE and skilled Arena. The damage wasn't the core problem (it was just masked by our insane damage), it was the inability of people to respond, and that hasn't changed at all. I can still HoJ you and then bubble. Give us skills that allow people to respond and then allow us to respond to them, rather than making us a class that relies on just removing the ability of a player to respond with HoJ and bubble.

Remove HoJ, give us a spell interrupt on a 10 second cooldown, put Repentance at 10 seconds PvP again, let us have good burst, and make bubble reduce damage by 50%, removing debuffs rather than making us immune. Or make bubble cut our damage by 50% or 100%. If you nerf our damage so people don't die in the length of a 6 second HoJ and a 12 second bubble, our damage is going to be worthless.

Keep JotW at 15% and give us a Deep Retribution talent that reduces mana lost to Drains, Burns and Stings by 50% or some number.

Finally, our damage right now (on Live) is masking other problems. It's hard to see other issues when Ret Pallies are killing things in 3-4 globals, but once the damage is brought down, the other problems are still there. When they nerf our damage (TO THE GROUND BABY), which is more than likely to be overnerfed, we're back to being a slightly better version of LOLRET. Really, the only major change is the JotW change, and possible AoW procs. New Seal system which doesn't change much at all??? Awesome. It is more convenient, but I still proc seals on autoattacks and I still Judge every 8 seconds.

Ret damage is too high. It is going to get nerfed too much. Blizzard will take a year to fix it. But we need a good amount of burst to kill things without snare, MS and our kiteability.

EDIT: To clarify, there is no mention of Double Ret here, and I don't mean the hotfixed changes. I mean the real damage nerfs coming and the ones I think will come again at level 80, making us lolret again, because damage nerfs don't address the real problems. There are people responding to points that I haven't even brought up and that are completely irrelevant, just standard Ret QQ and anti-QQ.

Because I'm still getting retarded replies - I'm NOT talking about the hotfixes where 70 Paladins in blues are still running around bursting things down in HoJs because the hotfix didn't address the issues. I'm talking about what direction the game will take at 80 and beyond.

[Hawkmight]

HoJ is back to 30 sec i believe. and quit QQing nad you already have a bubble that reduces damage by 50% go check your tool tips

[Keelie]

I'm not asking for another bubble. I'm saying the problem people have with Paladins and what makes them skill-less class is that they can remove the ability of the player to respond for a long time. That's the issue, not necessarily nerfing the damage, when we can be kited so easily. I'm trying to be constructive. Read my post rather than coming in and saying 'Stop QQing' to every Ret post you see.

Classes that require some skill and are fun to play are classes that can react and counter what the opponent is doing, and in turn can be countered by those classes, not just removing the ability of the opponent to react.

Even so, HoJ + bubble = 7+12 = 12 seconds until it's back up. But I'm pretty sure the talent is still 30 seconds off + the 4 piece set bonus, which is 10 seconds off.

[Gundulor]

I don't have any sympathy. Double retadin wasn't meant to be a good team idea and it's stupid that you complain about it. You don't see people crying about double priest not working. The whole point is to work in conjunction with something else. Regardless, 15% move speed from pursuit of justice, hand of freedom and 100% enemy movement speed from joj means you shouldn't get kited as a whole.

[Keelie]

Where did you get double Retadin from? I'd never play that team. I'm talking about either a HoJ+bubble - 18 seconds or at 80, HoJ+bubble and then another HoJ shortly after - from a single Paladin.

Also, I'm not talking post hotfix. Yes, we still burst fine on Live. The damage nerfs haven't gone through yet, and I suspect when people start getting Hammered every 20 seconds, they're going to nerf Ret damage even more.

[tjanson]

You're right on as far as how they haven't really addressed the core problems with Ret PvP, but I don't think they'll ever remove the immunity... THE class defining spell for paladins. I honestly think they just need to either A: Reduce damage done while immune by 50%(yes I know attack speed is reduced, it's NOT the same thing) or B: Not allow you to attack while immune. It IS supposed to be a defensive move after all, not a LOL U CANT TOUCH ME WHILE I RET ALL OVER UR FACE ability.

This is(still) massively overpowered and needs to be fixed. If Blizzard doesn't want paladins to be able to burst down enemies, they just won't die. That's not balance. That's broken game mechanics. As SO MANY PALADINS have said before we need either a reliable spell interrupt(not a fucking stun), a healing debuff, a snare, or some sort of gap closer. Every other dps class has at least one of these, and most have two. Some *coughwarriorscough* have them all, and people wonder why warriors work so well with other classes?

The damage nerfs really aren't all that crippling, but I do think JotW needs to be tuned up a bit, 33% is OP and 15% is pretty terrible. I actually think the original 25% was about right, if they just would have fixed it to be base mana from the start, instead of buffing, then crippling it. I know people despise ret QQ, but if you look at how Blizzard has been changing paladins through the whole WotLK cycle, it's obvious that some of these changes are pretty kneejerk reactions.

Unless these things are addressed, you just see how many ret paladins(or paladins at all for that matter) get Gladiator in the next arena season. Besides, we only have another 3 weeks before you start hearing "OMG DK'S R SO OP NERF NERF NERF" because people have no idea how to counter them. I'm on the beta, and trust me when I say if you think Ret is bad, good luck trying to kill a DK.

[Keelie]

Pair with a MS huh? Sure, it works. Ret/Rogue, Warrior/Ret/Shaman. What do you think I played pre-3.02?

What other comps?

So you're saying Ret Paladins should have to be carried by their teammates, not given the abilities they need themselves?

[Hawkmight]

I'm not asking for another bubble. I'm saying the problem people have with Paladins and what makes them skill-less class is that they can remove the ability of the player to respond for a long time. That's the issue, not necessarily nerfing the damage, when we can be kited so easily. I'm trying to be constructive. Read my post rather than coming in and saying 'Stop QQing' to every Ret post you see.

Classes that require some skill and are fun to play are classes that can react and counter what the opponent is doing, and in turn can be countered by those classes, not just removing the ability of the opponent to react.

Even so, HoJ + bubble = 7+12 = 12 seconds until it's back up. But I'm pretty sure the talent is still 30 seconds off + the 4 piece set bonus, which is 10 seconds off.

the set has changed its -1 to judgements if i remember right. our burst is been greatly reduced in favor of normal damage increase.

[fudgems]

Pair with a MS huh? Sure, it works. Ret/Rogue, Warrior/Ret/Shaman. What do you think I played pre-3.02?

What other comps?

So you're saying Ret Paladins should have to be carried by their teammates, not given the abilities they need themselves?

well in that case, gives rogues and warriors bubbles and healing abilities, give them complete freedom from any snare effects, ranged stuns, ranged snares, and the ability to make teammates completely immune to physical effects/damage this way they won't need to be "carried" by their other teammates.

find a partner that compliments a ret pally's playstyle, rather than asking for them to have every single effect in the game complete in their arsenal.

you want ms-like debuff, snares, interrupts. WHAT WOULD YOU BE MISSING THEN.
PLEASE QUIT WHINING AND STOP SUCKING.

[Keelie]

Ah, well, the set bonus change makes sense.

But still, pressure without a MS or lack of pressure from a low amount of time-on-target (from the other post on this) does not equal something dying. We have to be able to kill quickly, because the chance doesn't appear too often. That is: Healer CC'd or low + Paladin in range.

[Keelie]

well in that case, gives rogues and warriors bubbles and healing abilities, give them complete freedom from any snare effects, ranged stuns, ranged snares, and the ability to make teammates completely immune to physical effects/damage this way they won't need to be "carried" by their other teammates.

find a partner that compliments a ret pally's playstyle, rather than asking for them to have every single effect in the game complete in their arsenal.

you want ms-like debuff, snares, interrupts. WHAT WOULD YOU BE MISSING THEN.
PLEASE QUIT WHINING AND STOP SUCKING.

In my OP, I only ask to trade HoJ AND bubble for a 10 second CD interrupt and not nerfing our damage into the ground. NOWHERE do I ask for a better snare or MS. "Abilities we need" does not mean MS and snare. I didn't say that. Don't copy-paste your arguments.

Rogues are missing heals. They have avoidance, mobility, MS, snares, interrupts, CC.
Warriors are missing heals (except for Second Wind and Blood Rage of course). They have plate, charge/intercept (yes, they can be kited), MS, snares, and interrupts and a small amount of CC.
Paladins have heals, plate and bubble. They are missing MS and interrupts and have a fairly lousy snare in terms of catching something and a halfway decent CC. When you're running at 115% and your opponent is running at 108%, you do catch them. Eventually.

Yes, Paladins have some nice abilities and things like BoP and BoF can be useful for teammates as well. But I'm trying to say that Paladins come out behind.

[tjanson]

well in that case, gives rogues and warriors bubbles and healing abilities, give them complete freedom from any snare effects, ranged stuns, ranged snares, and the ability to make teammates completely immune to physical effects/damage this way they won't need to be "carried" by their other teammates.

find a partner that compliments a ret pally's playstyle, rather than asking for them to have every single effect in the game complete in their arsenal.

you want ms-like debuff, snares, interrupts. WHAT WOULD YOU BE MISSING THEN.
PLEASE QUIT WHINING AND STOP SUCKING.

Ah, rationality.

You don't understand. We don't want to be overpowered. A lot of good Ret paladins didn't(and still don't) like the way it was when we were two-shotting people. After the initial glee fades, it's boring, and every idiot nub can go around three shotting people in S4. We want to be competitive.

Lots of classes share abilities to some extent. We don't have everything, we DON'T HAVE A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE THINGS ESSENTIAL TO BEING A MELEE DPS CLASS IN PVP. We're simply pointing out why Ret is so imbalanced right now, and trying to come up with ways to fix it. All of the abilities you mention are easily dispelled. They have ZERO dispel resistance(in the ret tree). Good PvP teams know this and counter this. That's why you don't see ret paladins in high level arenas(2200+), even now.

Keep being an immature retard though. That'll teach em.

[Keelie]

There was recently an ESL Montreal tournament using 3.02 pre-nerf Pallies. It was a 15k prize tournament, with a lot of big-name teams there. Not a single Pally was on a winning team. They were kited and CC'd and the old standard, RMP came out on top. Nothing new under the sun.

[Pledge]

posts like these make me laugh. "COMPLETELY CHANGE MY CLASS INTO SOMETHING ELSE UNTIL IM OP AGAIN" this is basically what you're saying.

paladins are not UP, the nerfs were more because they ARE OP at 80, even if you fail to understand that.

they have synergy with almost every class right now as well so i don't know what you're talking about. stun/snare removal, great offhealing, bop, decent CC, cleanses, great burst, great survivability. you are missing maybe one thing. and it's a snare, which you still have in the form of 12% movement boost + snare removal + -8% runspeed.

your class is better than it has ever been (yes even at 80) if you still want to complain roll a deathknight. they are pretty much what you're asking for.

[Keelie]

I suggested really, 2 changes. OMG, change my class completely!!!!

I replaced HoJ, which is often used to interrupt spells with a spell interrupt that is more viable and also has the advantage of not letting noob Ret Pallies in greens stun and kill someone in S4 gear.

And I suggested that bubble is OP, and should not allow you to attack or should not make you entirely immune.

You people just hate Ret so much, don't you? You just hate it so much. I ask for 2 minor changes and you think I'm redefining the class. No, Blizzard redefined the class, and still failed to solve many Retribution problems.

We're much better than we ever have been? Yeah, sure. But we were lolret before. Making something bad into something good, is different than making something good into something too good. Yes, we were OP when 3.02 hit and we still are somewhat OP (look at some other classes). I'm not talking about the 70 Paladins that are still bursting people down despite 'hotfixes' that don't solve anything. I'm talking about 80 and beyond, when people are still QQing about things like Hammer of Justice and Paladins who bubble and how they're not smart enough to even try to run the other way and Ret damage gets nerfed into oblivion and we spend the whole of WotLK like we spent TBC.

[Pledge]

it's not about anything really. it's about suggesting changes to your class that will never happen. (the 50% bubble may happen but i doubt it)

and an interrupt on a 10s cd vs a 6s/3s stun/interrupt on a 20scd(is it 30 now?) is just going to make your class even easier to kite.

[tjanson]

posts like these make me laugh. "COMPLETELY CHANGE MY CLASS INTO SOMETHING ELSE UNTIL IM OP AGAIN" this is basically what you're saying.

paladins are not UP, the nerfs were more because they ARE OP at 80, even if you fail to understand that.

they have synergy with almost every class right now as well so i don't know what you're talking about. stun/snare removal, great offhealing, bop, decent CC, cleanses, great burst, great survivability. you are missing maybe one thing. and it's a snare, which you still have in the form of 12% movement boost + snare removal + -8% runspeed.

your class is better than it has ever been (yes even at 80) if you still want to complain roll a deathknight. they are pretty much what you're asking for.

First of all, it's a 15% increase. If you're going to throw numbers around, at least make sure they're the right ones. Yes, of course our class is better. That's because before they changed it we were terribly, horribly broken. There doesn't need to be a sweeping change made to the paladin class to fix the things that make them imbalanced.

They could add a speed decrease to JoJ. Say 15%. Look, feral druids have a speed increase DOUBLE ours, and Blizzard felt they needed a slow. Why do you think that is? Reducing people's speed to 100%(reducing, lol) isn't really that thrilling.

They could give us a speed increase, like a short duration, short cooldown sprint.

They could give us a 20% healing debuff applied via crusader strike.

They could change our stun back to 1 minute CD, period(no talented or set bonus bullshit) even reduce the length of the stun, and give us an actual spell interrupt.

Any one of these changes would balance ret paladins significantly. I'm just throwing out ideas here, not saying I want all these abilities, and an IWIN button as well.

But regardless of whether my ideas are good or bad, it's pretty clear to a lot of people that ret just doesn't work as is, and trying to tune down damage isn't the way to go about it.

Also, as I look over this post and see what Keelie wrote, I crack up a bit to see how much along the same lines we're thinking.

[PaleFolklore]

I'm pretty sure HoJ will be nerfed sometime during s5, so chill, they'll change that, too. : )

[Keelie]

I think the possibility of Bubble not allowing you to attack is quite possible.

Yes, we're easy to kite. A major change that would never happen is Holy Charge or a good snare or a MS. Those will never happen. I'm asking for our burst damage - that when we do reach a target, we can kill it, and not have it run around laughing at us. I see (and it's not now, obviously), Ret damage being nerfed into the ground again, because noob Ret Pallies can kill skilled players because of HoJ and bubble.

In order to NOT have our damage nerfed, we need to have HoJ nerfed. We use it as a spell interrupt a lot. Give us a spell interrupt. Healers can still cast instant spells, but they can't sit there and cast a Gheal and laugh at us.

Finally, people are now so angry at being 2-shot by Ret Paladins, they cannot see any further than NERF! Okay, the nerfs are going to come. The class mechanics behind us are still broken. We're a melee class that has a LOT of trouble getting into and staying in melee range. We're a DPS class that cannot reliably stop a healer from healing.

The reason we're successful now is because we put out A LOT of damage. When we don't put out a lot of damage, where will we be?

For the record, I'll be playing my Priest in Lich King, because I'm not putting up with Ret Pallies for another expansion, while Blizzard fucks around with our class and never fixes it, but I still think it's unfair to people who might want to play Retribution.

[Pledge]

feral also has 2 charges. they have to shift to heal though. can't cleanse anything but poisons. can't heal/cleanse in forms and receive 20% more healing in cat, have bearform, but don't wear plate. the speed increase is actually more than double yours (45%) but only works in cat form and is only equal to yours in bear, but we aren't talking so much about numbers being correct right? they are a different class though, you both have your dis/advantages. let's not make this about feral druids though.

paladin's haven't been lolret since before 2.4 btw, and was actually the higher PvP tree than holy s4.

Paladins damage got nerfed because... wait for it... THEY WERE DOING TOO MUCH! /gasp. if you start changing core class abilities (such as hammer and bubble) you will have to rebalance the class entirely and that would actually be more of a headache than fixing the actual problem... which was they were doing too much damage.