Change HoJ and Bubble, not our burst!

[Keelie]

EXACTLY!

We're doing too much damage right now for people to see the real problems, because we kill stuff. Yes, nerfs are coming.

Blizzard SHOULD change HoJ and bubble and do the work and testing it takes to fix us, rather than just insanely buffing our damage, then nerfing it into the ground, and still NOT FIXING US! Damage is the problem right now, this very instant, but it is not the only problem.

Blizzard is very, very likely to overnerf our damage and then take 6 months to a year to finally get us to where we need to be.

[Yuziku]

I would have to agree with many people that rets dmg is insane and needs a nerf. However I don't think it needs a big nerf.

I would also have to agree that changes to the paladins stun and bubble need to be made, lower the stun or remove it and replace it with a snare or something along them lines. Change bubble so it roots you to place or something, gives people the chance to move then.

There is normally a downside to an awesome skill (for a few classes anyway) If I saw a bubble in arena I would remove it and then be happy that I wouldn't see any wings for awhile, however they changed that now so hey.

Something that makes you immune to all damage needs a counter side so people don't just throw it around, shadow priests can't deal dmg once they pop there mini version. so something along them lines would sort most things out I think.

[Pledge]

well really i'd hate to see ret be so bad that it's basically go holy or be bad like it was for so long in bc. ret and prot seem more of a paladin to me whereas holy is like the offspec in terms of class design. (i mean look how all their abilities but heals are melee, they are meant to be in your face) i kinda disagree with feral getting a snare as well, when they can already root/cyclone and are practically immune to snares themselves.

I don't think ret seems as bad as you guys are making it out to be though. when you aren't in melee you still have the ability to do several things. and nerfing(yes i think it'd be a nerf) hoj and bubble doesn't seem like the right answer to me.

ya i don't play a retadin (melee nor healer are really my style) but the fact that their kiteable is what makes them possible to deal with at all. i don't want to imagine a rogue/war who can toss heals/cleanse/stunremovals.

[tjanson]

It's not 45% percent unless you have a set bonus.

Also, now you're just rattling off a bunch of (still incorrect) information, it really doesn't help your argument at all. Druids can remove curses as well as poisons. Just stop. You don't know what the hell you're even talking about.

You're saying that paladins were stronger in S3 as ret than as holy, and that means they were balanced? Even though not a single highly rated or professional team had one in any major tournament? "It's okay, they were even more broken as holy man, ret's fine."

You're saying that instead of properly balancing paladins, they should apply a band aid to fix the instagibs, instead of addressing the real problems? That's fantastic logic!

[Keelie]

Glickz subbed a Ret Pally for his Warlock on Orz. ;D

I'm not saying Ret is entirely useless. It's pretty good for a lot of things and it's a good comp if you play Ret/Rogue or Ret/Arcane Mage (ATM) or Ret/Warrior/Healer. But never will you see Ret/Healer or Ret/Mage/Healer or anything like that.

I think you somewhat overestimate what we can do while not in melee range. I do a lot of running. Our heals have the same intrinsic problem as a Holy Pallies - we have to stand still to cast them, for a good amount of time. AoW helps a lot, but that requires us to be getting melee crits.

[Pledge]

o my bad forgot people run around in pve gear. ya i forgot about curses too that is my bad.

orz won plenty of tournaments using a ret paladin in their setup. and that was actually using s2 gear. ya their warlock played both ret and lock.

i can call you wrong too.

i'm saying don't change the class core abilities to apply a band aid fix actually. if you want a different class roll one. if their damage is too high, nerf their damage.

Glickz subbed a Ret Pally for his Warlock on Orz. ;D

bleh beat me to it.

[Keelie]

That was funny. He's done it a few times, but in the last MLG tournament, me and my friend were watching it and it came down to the last match where that Korean team (Rogue/Hunter/Priest) had been zerging Hafu down and I was like - they're gonna put the Ret Pally in!! They're gonna do it!! And my friend was like, yeah, not in a million years. Then they put him in. 8)

I think they could make Ret into a competitive Arena spec/class with a few changes AND stop the QQ from noobs in BGs.

The problem is that terrible Ret Paladins can own face in Battlegrounds, while good Ret Paladins still get worked by good players of other classes at high arena ratings. Once again, not referring to people with the Lawgiver 2h fighting S4 people - that was retarded.

Finally, I know Warriors, Rogues and Priests are still gonna be the best PvP classes come Lich King. Possibly Death Knights, but I don't know a lot about them right now. But you can be damn sure I'll know them inside out by 80 when I have to fight one. I actually have a lot of expectations for Resto Shamans as well. They're really hard to kill right now.

I just want Ret Pallies to be a bit higher up. You know, middle of the line, not bottom or bottom half.

[Pledge]

i used to play with hafu so orz is actually the only team i follow at all. i don't watch any of the tournaments but i still am glad to see hafu and rhaegyn pwnin it up. RUIN BG FTW BIATCHES.

[tjanson]

Oh yes. Changing Judgement of Justice from a 100% max speed debuff to a 85% max speed debuff. Wow, that's breaking the VERY CORE OF PALADIN CLASS ABILITIES.

"LOL REROLL THEN"

Great. Glad you contributed.

The other thing is I'm guessing they only switched in the paladin because of the comp they were facing. That team would never have gotten where they were using a ret paladin the whole time, and I'm sure they didn't.

[Pledge]

giving a snare to a class that didn't have one (except solely to druids) yes thats changing the class in a huge way. i already said i thought it unnessariry to do that to druids.

[Keelie]

Tjanson, I hate to say this, but you're not helping anymore...


The snare, MS, Holy-Step or Holy-Charge - they're not gonna happen, which is why I didn't ask for them.

However, some people still had to respond to tell me that won't happen - which annoys me to no end.

I'm really not asking for anything new, if you look closely. Just the interrupt, which is fairly small if you trade it for HoJ.

I'm asking for Blizzard to balance Bubble and HoJ rather than nerfing our damage into the ground, because that's what's causing the skill imbalance. I see a whole other expansion of LOLRET on the horizon.

[tjanson]

Judgement of Justice was just one idea, out of many. Not that they're even my ideas anyway, they've all been talked about for months. And yeah, I'm a bit tired of hearing the same stupid reactions every single time someone suggests fixing(not tuning, but really fixing) retribution. That probably shows through in my posts.

Hopefully Blizzard sees some of this stuff, I am very happy with Ret from a PvE perspective, I just think they're still massively imbalanced in PvP and I really hope they think a little bit more outside the box when it comes to fixing it. Nerfing and buffing seal damage over and over and over and over just doesn't seem like the way. How's nerfing mana regen going to keep a paladin from stunkilling you? They're just not looking at the core problem with ret.

[Requiem]

Ok....Let me understand what the original poster is trying to say.

You want to take away the Ranged stun.

you want to take away the immune to damage and effects for 12 seconds while still being able to steamroll the opponent.

And all you want is a 10 sec cooldown counterspell? and to not take down the damage that isnt bad when you dont count in the not being able to react to them.

And you all are bitching at the OP about this? Bubble should have allways been a purely defensive measure not an offensive one. I for one would rather be able to go on fighting,or trying to escape,rather then being killed while stunned.

I fail to see why this change would be anything but good for all classes in pvp

[Pledge]

i think paladins need the stun tbh though. it's a strong CC (almost every class has a CC now). the bubble could be nerfed to not be immune cuz we hate that.

[Warriorspwnwithhealer]

I really cant understand why everyone is bitching at the OP, he wants to nerf (or maybe tune is the right word) ret paladins, are you all ret pallies?

[Requiem]

Maybe remove the stun....and make repentance baseline? 10 sec duration pvp/45 seconds pve,break on damage,1 min cooldown.

Means a new 31 point talent for ret...But I don't think people would be that upset about it. Maybe something like shamanistic rage....a way to generate a lot of mana back with a decent cooldown.

at the above poster

My theory is that they are objecting to any statement that involves the word paladins out of a kneejerk hate reaction,without actually reading what it says.

[Keelie]

The reason I want Repentance 10 seconds is to make up for the loss of HoJ. I still want the ranged CC for 10 seconds which breaks on damage. I don't want the 6 second rape your face ability that's going to get our damage nerfed to nothing.

The spell interrupt shouldn't be OP at all. It's like Kick or Pummel, and you have to be in melee range to use it.

The reason a person in blues can kill a S4 player is the combination of HoJ and then bubbling. I mean, part of it is the insane damage, but assuming that can be brought down to reasonable damage fairly easy, someone with no skill whatsover can still HoJ and Bubble and kill a great player.

[Requiem]

So would you say that taking away hammer of justice from all specs,would mean giving repentance to all specs?

Because as a prot pally,I use hammer to give me a few seconds to regrab threat on a target i lost it (not recently but its happened in the past)

And yes...I think giving a bit longer duration but making it break on damage is totally worth the switch.

I also wish that warlock fear broke on damage too...but thats a vain hope.

[El_Vaughn]

I also wish that warlock fear broke on damage too...but thats a vain hope.

it does break on damage.

[Keelie]

I thought about Prot Pallies, but with tanks generating so much threat, and the cooldown on your taunt lowered, and with so many new instant cast abilities, I don't think missing HoJ, which most bosses will be immune to, is going to hurt you too much.

If anything, Holy Pallies who use it as an escape mechanism will hurt the most. Maybe making Repentance baseline isn't a bad idea.