Change HoJ and Bubble, not our burst!

[Keelie]

Well, sure. But the teams that are viable for Ret are much more specific than the teams that are viable for many other classes and specs. Not everyone, to be sure, but most.

In pre-3.02 the word 'carried' is much more applicable.

[Keelie]

We'll see. I think Ret will still be getting Mana Burned and Viper Stung, kited and unable to stop heals. Also, the main point of my post - I think Ret burst might get nerfed way too far.

[sillverhair]

tbh id rather like the idea you wrote up there ;D

pre buff bubble+hs, bubble+you cant touch me, bubble+healing

post buff, bubble+you still cant touch me AND i can faceroll over you and your four friends in the meantime :P

[Requiem]

It wasn't so much tanking bosses that it happened...but tanking large packs,especially if one was CC'ed at the pull.

the Ranged CC gave me a moment to shift focus to snag the latecomer before it caused havoc.

granted I havent had to have things CC'ed since....before the patch really unless mechanics absolutely required it.
skele's in kara,warlock thingys in MH are the first to come to mind.

I do wonder one thing though...What would people qq about if they removed the ability to damage people while immune?

Generally when I was pvp'ing as a Prot pally pre 3.0 (Glutton for punishment that i am) I used bubble like I use Cloak of shadows on my rogue....removing debuffs.

[Pledge]

ya addressing ret's vulnerability to mana burns definitely needs to be addressed.

[enough]

I suspect when people start getting Hammered every 20 seconds, they're going to nerf Ret damage even more.

well then, they shud probably nerf rog as well ;D

[Requiem]

Maybe that could be the new 31 point ret talent...

Reduces the effect of mana drains by 50%

This is going with the idea of making repentance baseline as well as the changes to hammer and bubble.

[Aljo]

What a typical lolret QQ post.. "Remove HoJ, nerf bubble, I nead brust!!1".. I, on my other paladins like both of the abilities - HoJ helps a lot in multi pull situations AND gives you time to heal when you're being attacked..

And bubble? Well, who doesn't want to Bubble+ hearstone That and the fact that it prevents fall damage and of course, gives you time to heal in its period..

TL;DR(even though it's ot much): I don't approve of this.

[MDW]

It makes me infuriated that people never once read the OP's post, but assume it's a wine post and post accordingly.

I'll say I never had a problem with the damage the paladin was pushing out at me. The problem was the fact He could stun me from 25 yards away, and he could turn invincible via Divine Shield.

[Keelie]

Paladins do need burst. It's just how the class is designed. You can't kill so many people without it, because of the lack of MS, interrupt or ability to stay on the target.

Bubble+Hearth is a great joke, and it's sometimes useful. Fall damage is again, nice, but mostly a novelty as you go straight down, rather than float, like Slow Fall and Levitate.

In multi-mob pulls, you AOE tank them, like Paladins are supposed to do. Even though they're a bit weak ATM since Warriors and Druids got massive AOE tanking buffs. With the amount of threat tanks put out post 3.02, there should be no aggro issues.

[Deleted]

Really nice and constructive post about the "real" issue here.. Nice post.. PPL need to go to school more or start reading instead of just skimming through the text hoping that they understad whats been adressed.

[Aljo]

Yes, paladins do need burst and I didn't want to flame - but I don't think nerfing HoJ and bubble is the correct approach

[NydusTemplar]

Honestly speaking, I have to say that changing bubble & HoJ wouldn't really fix our class. More burst, a spell interrupt, and old Divine Protection won't really help us in trade of what we'd be losing. Even if its a ranged interrupt, that won't make us currently, since most of our problems with being kited are formed by instant cast spells, then casters could just fake the interrupt and boom, back to square one. The new Divine Protection + debuff clearing with damage reduction isn't going to make it either, because only complete idiots get caught with their pants down in melee range against Ret, which is as it should be. With the change you propose, quite literally, they'll have nothing to fear from Retribution.

Part of fighting Retribution is keeping them at arms distance and working them til the bubble shows ups, then running away til it drops than destroy us. Its our single greatest strength and our biggest achilles heel, and its always been about how its utilized. It is not the flaunted 'I WIN' button everyone claims it to be, and any experienced PvPer will tell you that (except those who simply hate Paladins and want them nerfed into the ground for spite). If you use it correctly, you can demolish someone, but the same could be said for 5 minute cooldowns that other classes have.

We've still got a fair bit of damage, however, far more than we ever had pre 3.0, and that counts for something. Yes, the Seals are getting chopped down by 20%, and yes, we're going to lose a fair amount of burst off of our judgement spell. Now, if this has shown anything, Blizzard is actually paying attention and trying to work on things this time, not like last time when we had them lying to our face when the proof was sitting right next to them (Blessing of Spell Warding anyone?). Will they get it right? We'll see. Remember, they are human, they will make mistakes.

Honestly, the two problems that have faced this spec are the two same problems that have always faced Ret. The premiere culprits in every major problem with Retribution are scaling, and Seal of Command. This has never changed, not once. We've got the largest number of abilities which scale, meaning that when we're in lower end gear, we're garbage, and when we're in the best gear, we're damn near juggernauts. The same often holds true of warriors, but its to a lesser extent for them. Scaling isn't so much of an issue in this discussion, but its worth mentioning, but Seal of Command most definitely is. What should happen to it, I've got my own ideas, but I'll save all of them for now.

I'll freely admit we're long over due on an interrupt, and that's why I don't think 20 second HoJ was as overpowered as it was made out to be. In truth, the burst was too high, and the 20 second HoJ would've been a stun combined with an interrupt, which would make it almost as good as a flat interrupt every 10. The real problem is that they took both at once, instead of one or the other. Again, I've got ideas on that, but that's not for this discussion.

Finally, on the JotW front. Right now, its not an issue at all, since PvP Ret gear with Int on it allows you to make up for it using JoW. I was running around soloing shard sites, and the only time I ever started to run dry on mana was when I was one on one with the elites at the end, and that was because I was going full bore DPS and healing myself.

At 80, however, I can see the problem this presents, and I honestly think that JotW will need to get knocked back up to 20%, but only for PvP, not PvE. Honestly, I don't think this is going to be a major issue for PvE, but unless they give us a protected mana pool, we're gonna be devoured by Priests. (Sounds oddly familiar...)

In the end, trading Hammer of Justice for Pummel and giving our immunity up for higher burst isn't the answer. Without our immunity, we'd have no hope of surviving a focus fire, and every melee class along with every ranged class would destroy us. Our burst, though higher, would still be worthless since we'd still be kited and CCed. We keep getting pushed closer and closer into becoming warriors, we shouldn't be warriors, we should be Paladins.

[Pledge]

ya the jotw was a bit harsh in pvp. in pve it was pretty much perfect (probably not perfect but almost there). for pvp it would be more perfect if there was something like a 50% resistance to mana burns.

[warptwist]

i speak as a Healer doing 20+ Arena matches every week with my paladin alt(ofc with my mage ive been doing Arena with for about a year at 1850-2000 rating and my SPriest 1600-1900 rating) and i dont think paladins are owerpowered - they dont have Mortal strike effect so ofc their dmg is increased rather than a warrior / rogue, yes their burst is high... but they dont have mortal strike! - so its easy for me to get my health up again(Holy shock crit macro and the trinket from MgT 3rd boss = instant 100% hp again - then HoF / Bubble / HoP / Kiting what so ever the next minute - with my partner helping me kiting the paladin) intil my own cooldowns is ready again and / or the paladin himself

ive never been specced for Retribution rather for more than 5 hours proving my friend i could beat him in my off spec gear ^^ so im not really trying to defend myself, as a tank i say: NERF THEIR BURST THREAT! xD tho.. but thats simply.. take fanaticm damn pvp paladins with PvE gear! :P

Paladins: their fine, just reduce the time on Hammer of Justice by 1-2 seconds(you can get glyph to increase by 1sec) they NEED Major burst to get a player down, they dont have Stuns and interuptions ever 0.5second, nor do they have wound poison, Cripling pison, Mind numbing, Mortal strike, lots of things other melee classes have...

atm Warriors / Druids / Rogues what so ever(dunno really haven't played THAT much) are overpowered / good Arena classes.. why can't paladins without Mortal strike effects be it?

[warptwist]

for pvp it would be more perfect if there was something like a 50% resistance to mana burns.

no that would be too much.

[Pledge]

ya but getting manaburned or viperstung for 30% of ur mana when you have almost no way of getting it back fast... thats too much.