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  1. #21

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    In a raiding situation, you take FoF and shatter (but not frostbite) and you just spam frostbolt.

    You can't shatter combo FoF like you do with frozen targets, because its on a charge system. If you have one charge left, and you try to frostbolt and ice lance at the same time, only one will benefit. Which should be the frostbolt, but I wouldn't be surprised if latency made the ice lance benefit but not the frostbolt.

    Ice lance doesn't do enough damage relative to frostbolt to use unless you are moving or for whatever reason are unable to use frostbolt.

    Also consider you don't get FoF or Brain Freeze procs (once they make the change to chill effects proccing it, not sure if they have yet) with ice lance. Even if at certain gear levels frostbolt + icelance would be better than 2x frostbolt on FoF procs on paper, the inability for ice lance to proc these effects makes up the difference.

  2. #22

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    I do two frostbolts and immediately do an ice lance after 2nd frostbolt.

    This method = 3 crits
    With haste, it's great DPS

  3. #23
    The Lightbringer Gaiwyn's Avatar
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    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    Quote Originally Posted by Althizor
    In a raiding situation, you take FoF and shatter (but not frostbite) and you just spam frostbolt.

    You can't shatter combo FoF like you do with frozen targets, because its on a charge system. If you have one charge left, and you try to frostbolt and ice lance at the same time, only one will benefit. Which should be the frostbolt, but I wouldn't be surprised if latency made the ice lance benefit but not the frostbolt.

    Ice lance doesn't do enough damage relative to frostbolt to use unless you are moving or for whatever reason are unable to use frostbolt.

    Also consider you don't get FoF or Brain Freeze procs (once they make the change to chill effects proccing it, not sure if they have yet) with ice lance. Even if at certain gear levels frostbolt + icelance would be better than 2x frostbolt on FoF procs on paper, the inability for ice lance to proc these effects makes up the difference.
    Firstly, Ice Lance does proc BF. Not sure if it didn't at any other time but before the shutdown tonight I found that it was proccing it.

    Secondly, I agree with the sentiment that sticking with Frostbolt is best. Until they introduce Ice Lances being able to proc FoF, Frostbolt will no doubt give you the best sustained DPS. Weaving in a Fireball when BF procs will prove to be interesting once I am able to test this out.

    Gaiwyn

  4. #24
    Pandaren Monk Statix's Avatar
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    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    I just keep casting Frostbolt, rather FoF procs or not. Two Frostbolt crits (= 7500 to 8000 damage) beats Frostbolt + Ice Lance (= 6000 to 6500 damage). This is on bosses. On normal mobs, whenever they are frozen, I do a Shatter Combo.
    Statix will suffice.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer Gaiwyn's Avatar
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    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    I want to hear what people have to say with regard to insta-Fireballs being slotted into their Frostbolt spam so that there is some semblance of a rotation; albeit a rather RNG one.

    Shatter combos on general wildlife (ie. Horde) are great. XD

    And yeah, when you must manoeuvre, Ice Lance is nice when you have FoF up.

    Gaiwyn

  6. #26
    Pandaren Monk Statix's Avatar
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    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    I hate the fact that I have to worry about the Brain Freeze proc. It's really only useful in PVP where you need to keep moving and it's nearly impossible to cast Frostbolts, but in PVE, I wouldn't take it.
    Statix will suffice.

  7. #27

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    It was my understanding that you could shatter combo (FB+IL) on the second charge. I'll have to pay more attention next time I try it.

    The thing that everyone seems to be missing is that yes, frostbolt spam is more damage per second because using GCDs for ice lance and brain freezes is less damage. BUT, that is only because right now fights are fast and mana is not an issue at all. Brain freeze procs and ice lance, however, are all about damage per mana used. With these procs, mana efficiency will be very solid in longer fights for frost mages. And hell.. its more fun than just spamming FB.

    Its not like things are going to stay thise easy when the XPac comes out. Those mobs will actually be balanced against the skills we are using now. Unlike current bosses.

  8. #28

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    Quote Originally Posted by Statix
    I hate the fact that I have to worry about the Brain Freeze proc. It's really only useful in PVP where you need to keep moving and it's nearly impossible to cast Frostbolts, but in PVE, I wouldn't take it.
    Really I have found my dps drops if I ignore my BF procs. Not a bunch mind you, but pretty reliably every time.

  9. #29

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaiwyn
    Firstly, Ice Lance does proc BF. Not sure if it didn't at any other time but before the shutdown tonight I found that it was proccing it.

    Secondly, I agree with the sentiment that sticking with Frostbolt is best. Until they introduce Ice Lances being able to proc FoF, Frostbolt will no doubt give you the best sustained DPS. Weaving in a Fireball when BF procs will prove to be interesting once I am able to test this out.

    Gaiwyn
    If Ice Lance procs BF now, it won't in the near future. They already announced the change to chill effects and its on the Beta, at least.

    And yes, you definitely take Brain Freeze in a PvE build and utilize the procs.

    The question could be whether you should try to hold on to a brain freeze proc until FoF is not up, as frost bolt would probably make better use of FoF. But if you keep getting FoF procs don't let the brain freeze proc go to waste. But you definitely take it and use it.

  10. #30

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    You bring up a good point Alth, I was under the impression that the fireball from BF did not consume the second FoF proc, I'll have to pay attention to that and see if it's necessary to hold off on casting it till the second FoF is consumed.


    We're doing Muru tonight and I'm one of the dpsers that stays on him the entire first phase so that should be a nice test.



    ....or I could just go to the targeting dummy.


    But to the others, in a raid situation, you definitely want to continue casting frostbolt through FoF procs. While the forstbolt/icelance combo my be a 1 sec increase in dps, it will hurt your overall dps and total damage.

  11. #31

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    I registered to post this....

    Get FoF, get shatter.

    Spell rotation is as follows (does not include throwing in the fireball when it procs)
    Frostbolt---this procs FoF
    Frostbolt (consumes 1 charge of FoF)
    Frostbolt + Immediately spam 1 ice lance. (these 2 hit at the same time, both affected by FoF, consuming the last 1 charge)

    Ice lance is faster in flight than frostbolt, therefore if you cast frostbolt and immediately follow it up with an ice lance they will hit at the same time.
    Giving you 3 spells affected by FoF which only has 2 charges.

    Good game.

  12. #32

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    Every little dmg you do while having FoF uses the proc. When when a mob is hitting me and FoF procs, if I have molten armor up, molton armor consumes my FoF. So pretty much if something is going to be hitting you, Molten Armor + FoF sucks.

    As far as FoF goes for raiding, when FoF procs, I cast 1 FB, then 1 FB/icelance. I'm guessing that it's latency that allows my 2nd FB/icelance to both crit. I even never raided with my mage, so I don't know if that 2nd FB/icelance is worth the GCD instead of just casting another BF, but I have always cast FB/icelance for the 2nd cast with FoF.

  13. #33

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    Quote Originally Posted by Magicbossk
    I registered to post this....

    Get FoF, get shatter.

    Spell rotation is as follows (does not include throwing in the fireball when it procs)
    Frostbolt---this procs FoF
    Frostbolt (consumes 1 charge of FoF)
    Frostbolt + Immediately spam 1 ice lance. (these 2 hit at the same time, both affected by FoF, consuming the last 1 charge)

    Ice lance is faster in flight than frostbolt, therefore if you cast frostbolt and immediately follow it up with an ice lance they will hit at the same time.
    Giving you 3 spells affected by FoF which only has 2 charges.

    Good game.
    As far as I know, It's not the "hit" that uses up FoF. It's the cast. If you are talking about shatter, then yes, I believe it's the hit that determines crit. But with FoF, when a cast leaves your hand, it checks to see if you have FoF buff, yes, increase chance to crit. In order to do the 2nd FB/icelance crit, they both have to leave your hand at the same time. That would have to do with latency. 0 latency would make this impossible to do.

    Again, this is how I understood it.

  14. #34

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    I've been doing Naxx on the beta with a frost spec in mostly level 70 gear (around 1200 spell power with 4/8 T6) and I can confirm that you can have 3 spells affected by 2 FoF charges.

    It's quite simple really. If you spam Ice Lance during the cast of your second Frostbolt they both will be affected by FoF. I've done about 10k (give or take) Shatter combos in this gear. GG

    Oh, one more thing. Try not to use Instant Fireballs during FoF. : )
    Quote Originally Posted by Tablemaker
    Yeah. It's funny how they reverse the whole thing. The fact of the matter is... if a customer created a scene in real life like they are in the forums, they would be removed from the store. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

    Example: GC works at McDonalds. Some idiots walks up to the counter and asks for a Whopper. GC tells him they do not sell Whoppers. The idiot flips a nut. Calls GC off and throws straws at him. GC asks him to leave.

  15. #35

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    Quote Originally Posted by Delijica
    I've been doing Naxx on the beta with a frost spec in mostly level 70 gear (around 1200 spell power with 4/8 T6) and I can confirm that you can have 3 spells affected by 2 FoF charges.

    It's quite simple really. If you spam Ice Lance during the cast of your second Frostbolt they both will be affected by FoF. I've done about 10k (give or take) Shatter combos in this gear. GG

    Oh, one more thing. Try not to use Instant Fireballs during FoF. : )
    TY for additional confirmation , its not the cast but the hit on the target. See my post above.

  16. #36

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    Quote Originally Posted by Delijica
    I've been doing Naxx on the beta with a frost spec in mostly level 70 gear (around 1200 spell power with 4/8 T6) and I can confirm that you can have 3 spells affected by 2 FoF charges.

    It's quite simple really. If you spam Ice Lance during the cast of your second Frostbolt they both will be affected by FoF. I've done about 10k (give or take) Shatter combos in this gear. GG

    Oh, one more thing. Try not to use Instant Fireballs during FoF. : )
    Yes I agree with you. You can get 3 casts off with FoF. Question is, is the crit % from FoF determined on cast or on hit? If it's on cast, then latency plays a bigger part. If it's on hit, then latency doesn't matter as much because icelance has a faster flight speed.

  17. #37

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    I'm pretty sure it's on hit. 100% even.
    MSBT always shows "-Fingers of Frost" when the second spell hits the target, not when it leaves my hand. Same is with Blizzard's default buff bar, the buff disappears when the second spell hits the target.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tablemaker
    Yeah. It's funny how they reverse the whole thing. The fact of the matter is... if a customer created a scene in real life like they are in the forums, they would be removed from the store. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

    Example: GC works at McDonalds. Some idiots walks up to the counter and asks for a Whopper. GC tells him they do not sell Whoppers. The idiot flips a nut. Calls GC off and throws straws at him. GC asks him to leave.

  18. #38
    The Lightbringer Gaiwyn's Avatar
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    From Levelling to Raiding (Frost)

    Level 70 10/0/51
    Level 79 13/0/57
    Level 80 17/0/54 or 0/17/54

    The advantages of Arcane talents:
    Arcane Subtlety -- no raid advantage.
    Arcane Focus -- no raid advantage.
    Clearcasting -- mana management.
    Spell Impact -- Brain Freeze Fireballs do more damage.
    Student of the Mind -- no real advantage.
    Focus Magic -- critical strike chance increase.
    Arcane Meditation -- mana management.

    The advantages of Fire talents:
    Improved Fire Blast -- no raid advantage.
    Incineration -- no raid advantage.
    Ignite -- with Fingers of Frost, Shatter, Brain Freeze, and your base crit rate, instant Fireballs have a very high chance of critting. With Ignite, that's 40% more damage; a huge increase.
    Impact -- no raid advantage, but helpful in all other cases: heroics, soloing, PvP.
    Burning Soul -- threat management for Brain Freeze Fireballs.
    Master of Elements -- mana management.

    So the biggest question is this:
    Will your (15%/Shatter+Base crit) chance of 40% extra Fire damage coupled with a good chance of 20% mana refund (remember that Frost builds allow for a high Frostbolt crit percentage) benefit you more than 10% free spell casts, extra crit and in-combat mana regeneration?

    I think the only way to know this for sure is to try both specs when you have a solid base of spell damage, are hit capped and have built at least some haste for effectiveness as a Frost mage. I'm leaning more towards the Fire talents. In a raid situation, mana should not become an issue, and having a high chance of proccing an Ignite from your Brain Freeze Fireballs makes me glow inside.

    That said, I disagree that PvE builds should not incorporate Brain Freeze -- especially if you were to spec at least into Ignite. I think that it will be worth throwing out those Fireballs then. And it does make it more interesting than, "Oooh, I procced FoF... my "rotation" doesn't need to change." /Frostbolt /Frostbolt.

    Gaiwyn

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Gaiwyn's Avatar
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    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    Why are people saying not to cast Fireballs during FoF? Wouldn't this be advantageous? Or do Frost crits do that much more damage that it is a waste of a crit?

    Also, I have found that FoF always disappears when the Ice Lance is cast, not when it hits the target. But everyone is saying that it still crits, along with the Frostbolt. What this essentially means is:

    Frostbolt cast.
    Frostbolt cast. First hits, procs FoF.
    Frostbolt cast. Second hits, uses charge, crits.
    End of Frostbolt cast, Ice Lance. Both crit.
    Go back to Frostbolting.

    If FoF and Brain Freeze proc at the same time, would it be better to fire off that Ice Lance then Fireball, or do another Frostbolt first? It is probably best to do that Fireball after the Ice Lance, because another Frostbolt may proc FoF again and then you could end up wasting Brain Freeze.

    Also, isn't it better to get that Fireball out as fast as possible, so that you reduce the chance of overwriting a BF proc?

    In essence, all of your Frost procs should be taken advantage of with Frost spells as this will give you the best continued DPS. Got it.

    Taking Ignite into account, however, does anyone have any test results regarding the difference between an Igniting Fireball and a standard Frostbolt crit during FoF? From what people are saying, I assume that Frostbolt is still better to fire off for those FoF procs. Which means that speccing into Ignite would be worthless. o.O

    Gaiwyn

  20. #40

    Re: Shatter in Raiding

    Well, if FoF and Brain Freeze proc at the same time it is better not to use instant Fireballs during FoF.
    Example: FoF and BF proc->Frostbolt (e.g. 6k crit)->Frostbolt+Ice Lance (e.g. 6k+3.5k)->instant Fireball (e.g. 2.5k to 3.5k crit).
    So, if you used instant Fireball during FoF, you would miss out the additional damage of Ice Lance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tablemaker
    Yeah. It's funny how they reverse the whole thing. The fact of the matter is... if a customer created a scene in real life like they are in the forums, they would be removed from the store. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

    Example: GC works at McDonalds. Some idiots walks up to the counter and asks for a Whopper. GC tells him they do not sell Whoppers. The idiot flips a nut. Calls GC off and throws straws at him. GC asks him to leave.

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