Lvl 80 PvE Mutilate Build, Any suggestions?

[mekers]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

I wasnt able to get full dagger specialization because points wouldn't allow, but that seems like the most of what i could get that would increase my DPS most significantly.

[Sisceria]

HFB?

[Nazhghal]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

envenom refreshes snd
vigor is a pvp talent, you won't hit 110 energy on bosses
hfb...skip 9% damage? oO

[Steridin]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

would this be better tho?

What i did is just switching Master Poisoner to 3/5 CCQ.

Just a thought on mobs that cant be poisoned, especially bosses. (not sure bout lk boss tho.)

Or else i guess the crit chance on finishing moves is good too.

[taidashar]

not sure if you realize it or not, but Master Poisoner increases ALL attacks crit chance by 3%. Not just yours, everyone who is attacking that target.

So in a raid setting MP > CQC

[Sisceria]

I figured i'd use this thread to talk about ruthlessness in PVE.

What does everyone think? I've been very vocal in the last few days over how useless I consider it is for PVP. However, I am confident that it gives a net DPS increase for PVE, and I think it will probably be a must for a serious DPS build. Though I'm too lazy to run the math right now. Has anyone else given it a look?

It's my understanding of PVE builds that it's not too bad to finish on 4 combo points, and the general consensus is get up to either 4 or 5 (whichever comes first) and finish. I think that with ruthlessness you will get a lot of finisher -> mutilate (4 points with seal fate and ruthlessness) -> finisher which will pretty much guarantee rupture will be up all the time. But i'm open to disproof, anyone?

[Kalistus]

This will be mine, for pvp purposes. It lacks hit but you can just stack it.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20000000000000

[Xal]

2 points in Close Quarters Combat is better than 2 points in Opportunity.

[AetherMcLoud]

I'd go with this, maximum raid efficiency:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

[danightryder]

If u bring a ret pally to a raid they have that talent that increases crit done to target by 3% and it doesn't stack with Master Posioner so u don't need to pick that up for raiding but 5 mans it hot so im going with. You also don't need Vigor because after u open u'll never reach 110 energy again so it's kinda pointless but i couldn't find any other useful fillers except putting 1 in MP instead of virgor or maybe the 1 in CQC

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0efoexoiboIzAo0xVZxb

[Xal]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ef0exoVboIzAo0xV0xZx

There is no other max dps spec for mutilate. Max. Highest. Top.

[AetherMcLoud]

I haven't done the math, but I REALLY don't think 2% crit is worth more than 20% mutilate damage.

[Xal]

I haven't done the math

[Lenerien]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

is what i was thinking for PVE raiding

[ant1pathy]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ef0exoVboIzAo0xV0xZx

There is no other max dps spec for mutilate. Max. Highest. Top.

This, with TtT swapped for MP if there's no Ret Pally in the raid/instance.

[jizzyburnizzy]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

is what i was thinking for PVE raiding

exact build i plan on using

[Saraduahn]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ef0exoVboIzAo0xV0xZx

There is no other max dps spec for mutilate. Max. Highest. Top.

Xal has hit the nail on the head here.

A few minor notes though:
- There still seems to be some debate about 2 points in CQC versus Opportunity. So some people are taking 2/2 Opportunity and 3/5 CQC, instead of 0/2 Opportunity and 5/5 CQC.
- Some people find that Vigor simply gives them more of a buffer to queue energy, and its dps boost is SLIGHTLY more for boss fights that don't just let you sit there but require you to run around. And with patch 3.0.3 we get a glyph that makes this a +20 increase to the energy cap, which provides yet a bit more utilization. If you want Vigor, most people seem to be pulling the point by going 4/5 in either Seal Fate or Improved Poisons.
- Your raid group (if you raid) may ask you to spec 3/3 Master Poisoner instead of CQC to provide the raid buff if there are no Paladins with the Ret talent that provides the similar non-stacking version of the buff. This will nerf your personal dps slightly to bring a big boost to the raid though (again, assuming your raid doesn't already have the buff from a pally, or another rogue). I've seen a few rogues also pick up Master Poisoner by giving up Turn the Tables, but I think taking it from CQC seems to be the more effective trade-off.
- I've seen a few people also want to pick up either Fleet Footed for utility, or Quick Recovery for survivability in group/raid settings. Seal Fate still appears to be the most common place the points are pulled from. You're giving up some dps here for utility/survivability, but of course that's your call for how you run your spec, if you want to bring something less than absolutely maximum dps to the table. Of course, a dead rogue does 0 dps, and a rogue out of range doesn't do much dps either, so you will likely see SOME improvement in your total raid output for an evening with one of these talents. But it's definitely less optimized dps output for a stand-there-and-blast-the-boss-with-sustained-dps kind of fight.


Also, note per Xal that Level 80 PvE mutilate builds don't require Imp SnD anymore. Just get the glyph for it. That's enough to give you a comfortable sustainable cycle.

[Saraduahn]

exact build i plan on using

You can.

But it won't go very well.

If you're really going to PvE raid with that, it will be embarassing for you. I'm not trying to be mean here. It's just that you're really going to be bringing a weak spec to a PvE raid.

The primary problem is that your sustained dps cycles will be horrendous with no Imp. SnD AND no Cut to the Chase. You'll blow a ridiculous amount of energy during a sustained fight to keep refreshing SnD while the other rogues in your party will be refreshing SnD pumping out 3k-6k envenoms. And good lord, get Imp. Eviscerate out of there completely. You're a poison rogue. You should be doing envenoms. What's the point of taking a 20% buff to Eviscerate AND a 20% buff to Envenom (not to mention that you'll be energy starved to do much of either since you'll have to keep refreshing SnD without Cut to the Chase).

Quick recovery is a valid utility decision if you're so inclined. It's a little less "optimal" dps, but as a rogue you have to survive. But deadly brew is less clear. To say the least, you should be hitting a target enough that 1/2 deadly brew is probably sufficient. But with a vaguely decent tank, do you really need to give up a talent point to apply crippling poison to a target that's sitting there pounding the tank anyway? If you need some quick response utility because a mob gets away from the tank, gouge it or blind it, or kidney shot it if you have combo points on it. Don't waste 2 talent points trying to get crippling poison on it.

And I can't imagine why on earth you'd want to give up a continuous 9% buff to all of your damage from HfB.

[zbik]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000
ruthlessness is worthless in this build, the reason being, in a raid your mutilate has +29% chance to crit ,any crit from mut gives you one cp from seal fate ,and your gonna mut twice per finisher ,and your mut swings twice each time checking to go from 2cp's to 3 cp's
15% puncture
6% from turn tables
3% from totem of wrath ,or heart of the crusader (the same buff given by master poisoner
5% from leader of the pack or rampage

on top of that ,mut rogs are generally gonna stack agl/ap/crit for their poison dmg,rogues start with around 5 base crit
assume a low base crit of 20
(5 from malice and 3 from dagger spec so really 7 from gear+Agl,83agl per crit,46 crit rating per crit,means 581agl OR 322 rating,some combo,again quite low target for L80 gear)

your mut attacks are gonna crit 20+29% of time, with 2 swings per mut, and 2 muts, 4 swings a total of 196% crit looking for a single crit to change you from 4cps for 2 muts to 5 or wasting some, having ruthlessless and starting at 1pt on mob,makes no difference when your easily earning over 5pts on avg

master poisoner is good for 5mans ,soloing ,possibly some 10mans w/ bad group make up, but for 25mans ,ele shm totem is 5min duration and gives 280 spellpower vs 144 for flametounge, theres no condition where it wont be down all the time,and heart of crusader is 30sec debuff thats going to always be refreshed every 6-8secs as the pallys rejudge their target as part of their dps rotation, master poisoner just dosent stack up ,its wasteful to the rog to spec it ,it falls off mob for split second when you envenom, and its alternative is 6% crit to mut (basically your only applicable move)

fleet footed allows you to change your boot enchant from run speed ,and not worry about it in general, it adds dps in sense that you might get to the mob in a movement fight 1sec sooner ,and thats another 2000 dmg or more different from not having it, it also lowers the duration on roots/snares/chill shield atk slow's and the like which is a dps benefit

vigor is debatable,but applys dps in movement fights to give tiny boost when your moving in/out of aoe's and such

due to the incredible crit rate of mutilate (seen above) oppritunity runs slightly ahead in power of close quarters combat, keeping in mind most of mutilates dmg comes not from the weapon,but from the :
Instantly attacks with both weapons for an additional 181 with each weapon. Damage is increased by 50% against Poisoned targets. Awards 2 combo points.
181 bonus, thats the big part of the dmg ,270 on poisoned targets, in most cases your white hit ,after being affected by armor wont meet or break that 270 applyed to each weapon
(there was also talk of the 180 or 270 thats applyed to your offhand ,being further modifyed by duel weild spec to 270 non poisoned ,or 405 on poisoned, making opp again a good mod,vs 1% crit from close quarters, someone might want to comment on how accurate this is currently?)

some other things, spec'ing down to serrated blades has less effect since so much dmg comes from poison,envenom and isnt affected by armor
evis is still bad,even w/ glyphs, rupture (esp post lich w/ glyph) and envenom still out perform
imp slice isnt valueable b/c you cant do 23sec w/o using envenom

again, all of this is relevant to 25man raid specs,and PVE considerations

[jizzyburnizzy]

You can.

But it won't go very well.

If you're really going to PvE raid with that, it will be embarassing for you. I'm not trying to be mean here. It's just that you're really going to be bringing a weak spec to a PvE raid.

The primary problem is that your sustained dps cycles will be horrendous with no Imp. SnD AND no Cut to the Chase. You'll blow a ridiculous amount of energy during a sustained fight to keep refreshing SnD while the other rogues in your party will be refreshing SnD pumping out 3k-6k envenoms. And good lord, get Imp. Eviscerate out of there completely. You're a poison rogue. You should be doing envenoms. What's the point of taking a 20% buff to Eviscerate AND a 20% buff to Envenom (not to mention that you'll be energy starved to do much of either since you'll have to keep refreshing SnD without Cut to the Chase).

Quick recovery is a valid utility decision if you're so inclined. It's a little less "optimal" dps, but as a rogue you have to survive. But deadly brew is less clear. To say the least, you should be hitting a target enough that 1/2 deadly brew is probably sufficient. But with a vaguely decent tank, do you really need to give up a talent point to apply crippling poison to a target that's sitting there pounding the tank anyway? If you need some quick response utility because a mob gets away from the tank, gouge it or blind it, or kidney shot it if you have combo points on it. Don't waste 2 talent points trying to get crippling poison on it.

And I can't imagine why on earth you'd want to give up a continuous 9% buff to all of your damage from HfB.

i dont find spamming HfB fun. i choose the spec because its fun to play. sure i may be sacrificing a little dps but since im not a "hardcore" raider I could really care less. I'm certain I'll be in the top on dps anyway, and I'm not the type of person that druels over dps meters. also i like usin imp eviscerate for grinding/dailys/ and sometimes finishers in pve. once the dual spec system is introduced I will clean up my spec but for now this seems like the best spec for my playstyle