Armor ignore now worthwhile PvE/PvP stat (Ret).

[Jiai]

Melee swings are *supposed* to be 40% of melee dps. Guess that isn't the case however.

Well, if you consider SoB as part of your melee swings, it makes sense.

[Offhand]

Well, if you consider SoB as part of your melee swings, it makes sense.

No no, there's a blue post somewhere stating that white damage itself is supposed to be around 40% of a melee's dps, with special attacks constituting the rest. It's just not true at this stage of the game however.

[Swampmoose]

No no, there's a blue post somewhere stating that white damage itself is supposed to be around 40% of a melee's dps, with special attacks constituting the rest. It's just not true at this stage of the game however.

I don't know about "white" damage (I have not seen the post you are talking about) but physical damage with the numbers I posted is about 40% on live.

Melee ~25% + CS ~10% + DS ~5% = 40% physical.

[ewhenn]

Actually wouldn't haste scale better? Jsut curious.

Faster attacks = More SoB procs
More SoB procs = More heals recieved by paladin
More heals recieved by paladin = More mana from SA
More mana from SA = More mana for DPS abilities

[Varaben]

more auto attacks = more jow procs too. Haste is hot stuff. The problem is AP and crit affect everything. I dont think well be stacking haste over Str in wotlk anymore than we do now.

edit: what i was trying to say is that while haste affects a pretty big part of your dmg AND gives you mana back, if you are just talking about straight DPS increases, STR will probably win out everytime. Kings+divine str make it so.

[Swampmoose]

more auto attacks = more jow procs too. Haste is hot stuff. The problem is AP and crit affect everything. I dont think well be stacking haste over Str in wotlk anymore than we do now.

edit: what i was trying to say is that while haste affects a pretty big part of your dmg AND gives you mana back, if you are just talking about straight DPS increases, STR will probably win out everytime. Kings+divine str make it so.

Strength is a stronger stat in Wrath then it is in TBC. It has been shown that strength will be more important than being hit capped. You make a good point about JoW procs. While haste and armor pen are going to be very close, that is one thing armor pen cannot help with.

[Varaben]

Maxdps (if you trust them) says str is better than being hit capped right now. The thing about hit cap is that you can just swap gear around and never have to socket for it. You can always have more str :P. I think i will still socket/gear for hit/expertise cap before i start pushing str hardcore.

[Swampmoose]

Maxdps (if you trust them) says str is better than being hit capped right now. The thing about hit cap is that you can just swap gear around and never have to socket for it. You can always have more str :P. I think i will still socket/gear for hit/expertise cap before i start pushing str hardcore.

I read it somewhere in the elitist jerks ret thread. I don't like maxdps much at all. It showed that you should gem for straight strength unless you will net a +str gain by reaching a socket bonus in which case you would gem hit or hit/str in a yellow socket to reach the socket bonus (edit** If you are below the hit cap only). I will look for the posts a little later.

[Varaben]

Yeah, it sucks having a CS miss on a boss so I cant see myself not going for hit cap asap. Being able to gem for expertise is gonna be really nice too.

[Dugarax]

WARNING: This is a post exclusively concerning Armor Penetration Rating in PvE

Warriors used to stack ArP (Armor Penetration) before the patch until the cap, which was 1050 with Madness of the Betrayer and 1350 without it (assuming the said warrior had executioner on one of his weapons). The principal interest of ArP was that it scaled with itself making it a better stat when you had more. 7 ArP was considered equivalent to 1 str for warriors with low ArP, and was worth more as you gained more ArP.

Now everything is converted to a rating, meaning it will ignore the target's armor by a % AFTER the debuffs and buffs (sunder armor, expose armor, faerie fire, executioner, etc.). Assuming the numbers in this thread are correct, the value of ArP would be as follows:

1% * 1350 (Boss' armor after debuffs) = 13.5 ArP

13.5 ArP = 15.83 ArPR (Armor Penetration Rating)

13.5 / 15.83 = 0.85

Each point of ArPR is equivalent to 0.85 ArP. The itemization cost spent on ArPR is almost the same as Str, so on 2 items with the same budget spent on Str and ArPR, 1 Str point = 1 ArPR point.

Since 7ArP was generally considered equivalent to 1 Str before the patch and now that 1ArPR is worth 0.85 ArP on a fully debuffed boss, we can conclude that ArPR is a significantly inferior stat compared to other stats like Str, Crit and Haste. Its value however increases with a target's armor, and level 80 bosses are expected to have much more armor than level 70 bosses, so this might change.

To make ArPR marginally equivalent to Str (make 1 ArPR = ~7 ArP), the target needs at least 11,000 armor, 11,081 be exact, to have 1 ArPR be worth exactly 7 ArP (see calculations below).
1% * 11000 = 110
110 / 15.83 = 6.95

I understand these maths are more accurate for warriors, but the value of ArPR can't be much different for pallies, and it can only go down compared to warriors since warriors' damage is 100% physical and not paladins' damage.

I may have made minor or major mistakes, but this is what logic and maths lead me to right now.

TLDR; Armor Penetration Rating is currently an significantly inferior stat compared to Str, Crit and Haste in PvE, on a fully debuffed boss.

Edited a few times for clarity/confusing sentences.

[Varaben]

Haste is like armor pen in that it scales with itself. If you have 25% haste your speed is decreased by 25%. Which means over 120 seconds, with 0 haste a 4 speed weapon you hit 30 times. With a 3 speed weapon (after applying the 25% haste) you are hitting 40 times, which is a 33% increase. If you bump that haste up to 50% (which is probably impossible to get) you are then hitting 60 times, which is 100% more hits than with 0 haste. Haste is awesome in that way. Also there is no way to get down to this much haste so the more you have the better it becomes. ArP was like that but it hard-capped. Haste only soft-caps from lack of haste on gear or lack of sockets or whatever.

[Dugarax]

Haste is like armor pen in that it scales with itself. If you have 25% haste your speed is decreased by 25%. Which means over 120 seconds, with 0 haste a 4 speed weapon you hit 30 times. With a 3 speed weapon (after applying the 25% haste) you are hitting 40 times, which is a 33% increase. If you bump that haste up to 50% (which is probably impossible to get) you are then hitting 60 times, which is 100% more hits than with 0 haste. Haste is awesome in that way. Also there is no way to get down to this much haste so the more you have the better it becomes. ArP was like that but it hard-capped. Haste only soft-caps from lack of haste on gear or lack of sockets or whatever.

Nice and informative, but the thread seems more to be about Armor Penetration like the title says. However people seem to be talking more about every other stat :S.

On a side note, it is also possible to gem for haste now.

[Varaben]

yeah, in wrath you can gem for armor pen also which is interesting and should hopefully spur some good data about how useful armor pen is. It could be that the 10% armor increase from bosses will mean that armor pen becomes mildly useful, but i cant see myself gemming or even taking gear with armor pen over expertise/str/hit gear of equivalent ilevel.

[Offhand]

Nice and informative, but the thread seems more to be about Armor Penetration like the title says. However people seem to be talking more about every other stat :S.

On a side note, it is also possible to gem for haste now.

My original intent was to analyze ArP as a much more desirable stat but with haste seeming to be the new *it* stat for melee dps. ArP appears to have an increased value but still less than an equivalent point of haste.

[Swampmoose]

Nice and informative, but the thread seems more to be about Armor Penetration like the title says. However people seem to be talking more about every other stat :S.

On a side note, it is also possible to gem for haste now.

Well when you are asking "Is armor pen worthwhile?" the only way to give an accurate answer to the original question is to compare it with "about every other stat." You cannot just say, hmm yeah armor pen is good. Proof lies in how it stacks up among other stats.

[crusaderaura]

I have Executioner enchanted on my blade and haste stacked elsewhere.

[Dugarax]

My original intent was to analyze ArP as a much more desirable stat but with haste seeming to be the new *it* stat for melee dps. ArP appears to have an increased value but still less than an equivalent point of haste.

ArP does not have an increased value. It is MUCH less desirable than before (see my previous post).

Well when you are asking "Is armor pen worthwhile?" the only way to give an accurate answer to the original question is to compare it with "about every other stat." You cannot just say, hmm yeah armor pen is good. Proof lies in how it stacks up among other stats.

I agree, but at the same time you can't just say "Haste is gud". The post didn't compare both stats but provided inaccurate info on haste.

Also, there is about no reason to compare ArP with Haste particularly because all the other dps stats scale with haste too.

[Swampmoose]

ArP does not have an increased value. It is MUCH less desirable than before (see my previous post).

I agree, but at the same time you can't just say "Haste is gud". The post didn't compare both stats but provided inaccurate info on haste.

Also, there is about no reason to compare ArP with Haste particularly because all the other dps stats scale with haste too.

I think there always seems to be the comparison between haste and armor pen because most gear is going to be set up with

xx Str
xx Crit
xx Hit, Haste or Armor pen

as much of it is currently in TBC. People will not, or I should say should not (because someone will) sacrifice Str/Crit/Hit for haste or armor pen but once a desirable amount of hit is reached you are going to be choosing between haste and armor pen on gear. I believe that is why there always seems to be a lot of discussion on Haste vs. Armor pen. Like I said earlier I will be sticking with haste because as you pointed out, it scales with everything. I have never been a huge fan of armor pen myself and now that it is this percentage based stat, I like it less.

[Offhand]

ArP does not have an increased value. It is MUCH less desirable than before (see my previous post).

When is before? Before 3.0 or before the DS change to physical damage?

ArP and haste should be compared for a few reasons:

A) They both can be gemmed for
B) They effect different abilities
ArP effects white swings, crusader strikes, and divine storm
Haste effects white swings and frequency of seal procs from white swings
C) They both scale with the same stats (AP and crit)

[zarondd]

Itemization cost of 1 Haste = 1 ArP = 2Ap = 1 non-sta Stat

Haste/Arp rating for 1% ~ 16

Using previous avg Ret damage distribution against 40% reduction (most mobs):

1 Haste gives ~ +0.0278% dps
1 ArP gives ~ +0.0254% dps

0.5 haste + 0.5 ArP gives ~ 0.0282%