Rend & Tear

[Risk]

Having troubles trying to figure out if this is of any benefit to Bears.

I've got 6 points to play around with once the servers go live, so wondering if it's feasible to take it.

Suggestions?

[The Cat]

With 5 points its 20% more damage on maul if target is bleeding, which should be all the time. Since you are always using maul as it doesn't use the global cooldown you should have at least a few points in it.

[Risk]

With 5 points its 20% more damage on maul if target is bleeding, which should be all the time. Since you are always using maul as it doesn't use the global cooldown you should have at least a few points in it.

Perfect, thank you. This is exactly what I wanted to hear!

[Deleted]

Rend and tear is awesome. Maul is awesome since its recent buff. You will definately want to prioritize maul more than lacerate as long as you have a bleed on the target. Maul benefits from so many talents now, and with the glyph its an absolutely awesome skill. Rend and Tear is a must have for beartanks.

[Swiftly]

My WoW Armory
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...idge&n=Swiftly

My Lv70 build
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

My Lv80 build
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

i looked at pure tanking specs and pure dps specs. so looking at building a hybrid spec that can do both dps and tank. i call this a 90/90 spec, if 100% is pure spec then i can do 90/90 which no one has notice that on my 5mans, 10mans, or 25mans runs a difference so far...

main points for tanking is
mitigation
avoidance
threat per second

main points for dps is
burst damage
consistent damage

noticing that threat per second (tps) really is based off dps. so i looked at pure tank spec and was looking at reducing talent points to must have talents. i notice that i can give up AE tanking abilities which are Feral Instincts and Feral Aggression. both are great for AE tanking and scales so well with more mobs you can hit with both in bear form. after figuring that out i started with based DPS spec and tried to work in the must haves for tanking. with 5.6% is crit immune and SotF is 2/4/6 percent. SotF 2/3 is a must have, leaving 1.6% left from items like rings, neck, cloaks, trinkets and weapons which is very easily to obtain.

with the focus on dps more then AE tanking abilities, my tps is kept very high. in fact enough for me to spam swipe and maul w/ maul glyph alone and keep AE threat. when i have to AE tank which turns out to be all the time especially in 5mans and 10mans i easily keep aggro and i have enough mitigation / avoidance to do it easily

[TheSpook]

i like the build above me, since its pretty much the same as my own.
But i dont understand why you havent taken feral instinct (for aoe tanking) and only 2 points in survival of the fittest.

By not taking the 3 points in survival of the fittest youll require getting alot more defense.

and honestly master shapeshifter is only needed in pvp, in current pvp fights i very rarely run out of mana (ofc for arenas - then it would be different - but who would take a tanker build for arenas)

this is my current 70 build:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

In pvp situations i rarely need the reduced energy cost on mangle - since im shredding all the way.
I'm able to pull off roughly 1100 dps in badge+ kara + za gear selfbuffed in catform with this build - which tbh is quite nice for a non-pure dps build.

The armor contribution talent is ofc something im missing out of, but with protector of the pack being the way it is - healers rarely have any problems keeping me up.

this aint exactly a progression build - but its nice for dps as well as even heroic/ entry raid tanking.

this will most likely be my lvl80 build:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

-anyway just my thoughts

[arel00]

Some people do prefer to take only 2/3 SotF while keeping some of the (inevitable) defense we already have on a couple items. Take VE tanking ring, to mention a common one. Plus defense is not that useless considering the diminishing return on dodge.
Personally, I still prefer 3/3 stat-wise, but that's the reason behind it.

Some people don't take full Rend & Tear aswell, but I value it loads when it comes to threat. Rage generation is much better now, and if you're lucky enough to have a prot pala in your raid (which I do), Sanctuary + Natural Reaction means 16 rage on every dodge. Practically spamming Maul constantly.

[Deleted]

My WoW Armory
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...idge&n=Swiftly

My Lv70 build
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

My Lv80 build
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

i looked at pure tanking specs and pure dps specs. so looking at building a hybrid spec that can do both dps and tank. i call this a 90/90 spec, if 100% is pure spec then i can do 90/90 which no one has notice that on my 5mans, 10mans, or 25mans runs a difference so far...

main points for tanking is
mitigation
avoidance
threat per second

main points for dps is
burst damage
consistent damage

noticing that threat per second (tps) really is based off dps. so i looked at pure tank spec and was looking at reducing talent points to must have talents. i notice that i can give up AE tanking abilities which are Feral Instincts and Feral Aggression. both are great for AE tanking and scales so well with more mobs you can hit with both in bear form. after figuring that out i started with based DPS spec and tried to work in the must haves for tanking. with 5.6% is crit immune and SotF is 2/4/6 percent. SotF 2/3 is a must have, leaving 1.6% left from items like rings, neck, cloaks, trinkets and weapons which is very easily to obtain.

with the focus on dps more then AE tanking abilities, my tps is kept very high. in fact enough for me to spam swipe and maul w/ maul glyph alone and keep AE threat. when i have to AE tank which turns out to be all the time especially in 5mans and 10mans i easily keep aggro and i have enough mitigation / avoidance to do it easily

Like you say, that will be a hybrid spec - best you can hope for will be tanking a 5-man. I would never take a druid with that spec as an MT.

Feral Instinct: Swipe is such an awesome ability for tanking these days. If you tank a few mobs, swipe is the way to go.

Shredding attacks: Is no longer a musthave. 2 points off lacerate is nothing these days, and lacerate is now only used to keep a bleed up on the target. Use your rage on other stuff than spamming lacerate.

Primal Precision: A cat talent, not a bear talent. While 10 expertise is neat, its hardly needed as a bear, and the main focus of this talent is for kitty DPS. It is certainly not better than what you *didnt* spend those points on.

Survival of the fittest: You must have 3/3. You wont get defense as a bear tank. Theres no leather gear around with defense, and with the change to armor on jewelery, you most likely wont take those over rogue jewelery. Not only that, 2% additional stats is always awesome. You cannot warrant taking just 2/3 for a tanking spec.

King of the jungle: This is a cat/pvp talent. Our armor gets lower and lower still, and you wouldnt really want to use enrage when a big boss is hitting you, unless you're massively overgeared for the instance or raid.

Naturalist: You're missing 6% pure damage there. It makes no sense AT ALL that you want to spend FIVE points to get 4% extra damage in bear, when you dont spend THREE points to get 6%.

Personally, im aiming for this, and my damage isnt that far behind (at level 70) other DPS classes, even if i stop tanking a mob and switch to DPS.

This spec, which is my aim, is maxing out tanking provess and threat generation: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

If you want to tank, then go full out, man. You can still do good DPS, but suddenly you can also see real content

[Mikki]

I hate to disagree with everyone here but to me in 5 man instances (IE grinding up to 80) it is next to useless as you will need other people in your group to add bleeds unless you are staking Lacerate yourself which you CAN do but its not needed to hold aggro so tbh i dont bother.

Come Raiding content for Bosses when you need to maintain consistently high threat and have time to bother stacking Lacerate I can see the benifit but other than that I wont use it and therefore wont bleed the target making Rend & Tear useless.

As for spending points to reduce shapeshifting cost without getting 5 in naturalist fisrt that is, for me, just crazy.

My 70 spec for bear tanking will be

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

And at 80 10/25 mans

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000
I drop Improved LotP for Shredding attacks as i assume in 25 man content there will be a Cat or Second bear for DPS. If not i will drop SHredding attacks?

[Mikki]

King of the jungle: This is a cat/pvp talent. Our armor gets lower and lower still, and you wouldnt really want to use enrage when a big boss is hitting you, unless you're massively overgeared for the instance or raid.

I ABSOLUTLY agree with everything you say except this. With instances and Naxx being so easy the +15% damage is awsome and the healers will have no trouble. If you worry combine it with barkskin

But this chap is correct regarding lacerate. So if you are not Bleeding the target wtf take rend and tear. Later at lvl 80 for Raids take it ofc but not for 5 mans and grinding to 80

EDIT: As for Infected Wounds OVER KotJ i dont think it will be of any use against Bosses at they will be Immune of have this sort of effect done by Rogues?

[susi666]

Bring Naturalist to 5 points. You won't find a much better talent for raising your dmg (=threat), as it affects all your physical dmg and not only special skills.

Primal Precision: A cat talent, not a bear talent. While 10 expertise is neat, its hardly needed as a bear, and the main focus of this talent is for kitty DPS. It is certainly not better than what you *didnt* spend those points on.

No. It will raise your dmg (=threat) a lot and also reduce incoming dmg when the boss parries less. Actually it's even better for bears than for cats, as cats are supposed to attack from behind and so they won't benefit from lower parry chance, while bears benefit fully from lower parry and dodge chance of the boss.
It may not be needed later when you have lots of expertise on your equipment, but our current feral equipment at lvl 70 has very little of it.

[Koumaru]

EDIT: As for Infected Wounds OVER KotJ i dont think it will be of any use against Bosses at they will be Immune of have this sort of effect done by Rogues?

The 20% attack speed slow works on bosses. Every tank now has an ability (through core skills or talents) to apply this type of debuff.

[leofric]

I see lots of talent trees that are missing key talents. First there is no point in making a hybrid spec since dual specs is on the horizon. Here is my lvl 80 tanking spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000
3 points left over to get whatever you want.
lvl 80 dps/arena spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000
Still trying out what to give up to get Primal Tenacity if it is needed(for the later 50% mana reduction to shifts).

[Swiftly]

for the mot part i did call this a 90/90 a spec that does not have 100% of a pure spec. i gave up on feral instinct because i dont need it. with the boost to over all dps swipe generates enough aggro to hold mobs against group members. most of my guildies are pushing 1600-2200++ dps in 5 mans using swipe and maul with glyph alone i can hold aggro with the highest dps about 85-90% of my threat. on bosses the highest threat is barely pushing 60% of my threat. so with out feral instinct i can use the talent points for something else that i can use for main tanking. after that focusing around dps talents is great... the only real lost of dps which is why i said this spec is 90/90 i had to give up something from both tanking and dps. naturalist is a great source of damage and threat per second. i give up 6% damage to gain 4% damage in bear for a total lost of 2%. sure i still lose 6% damage in kitty form but i gain 4% chance to crit which is getting harder to get since the agi to crit% nerf. yes i could give up KotJ or IW for the 5/5 of naturalist. but then i will be losing very effective abilities to keep damage rotations from dropping. sure i can lose shredding attacks making my kitty dps a mangle spec rotation. but i do use lacerate even if it is just 1 on the target to keep maul damage up at all times. this spec i have a consistent threat per second. on single targets i have reached 3k (peak spike) but most of the time 1900-2700. i have seen warriors spike higher but also drop lower in between spikes. i can rip threat from pallies & warriors with this spec. as far as main tanking i have tanked mount hyjal with this spec. like i said i only gave up my AE said of tanking for more of the dps side of talents to boost my over all damage out for a higher tps

[Swiftly]

side note yes i was able to pulls aggro away form better geared pallies and warriors with out taunt and semi-rage starved.

expertise does a lot for tanking for thoses that dont know, well then keep on thinking it does nothing while people will see for them self.

with self buff only
68% damage reduction
49 over all avoidance (dodge + miss rating)
131 of 142 +hit cap
33%crit
84 expertise rating (26ish expertise)

with raid buffs i am hitting close to
71-72 damage reduction
52 avoidance
36% crit

**prot pallies & warriors need 102.4 avoidance while druids aim for 1/2 of that which is 52.2

now that i got the T4 helm i can give up my T4 chest which i almost have enough badges for the SSO badges chest which will give me +hit cap, about 60-75 more armor from chest, higher stam, AP, at only the cost of 10 agi then mycurrent chest +gems.

[Alski]

**prot pallies & warriors need 102.4 avoidance while druids aim for 1/2 of that which is 52.2

wrong, we need 101.8 that is our number to avoid every melee attack, warriors and pallys are .6 higher because they also have parry.

[Deleted]

I hate to disagree with everyone here but to me in 5 man instances (IE grinding up to 80) it is next to useless as you will need other people in your group to add bleeds unless you are staking Lacerate yourself which you CAN do but its not needed to hold aggro so tbh i dont bother.

What? You cant be bothered doing lacerate every 15 seconds to increase your maul damage by another 20%? Even moreso, maul glyph + lacerate on two targets, you could sustain enough aggro to allow people to nuke two different mobs down. Lacerate doesnt have priority anymore, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt keep it up for the bleed.

I ABSOLUTLY agree with everything you say except this. With instances and Naxx being so easy the +15% damage is awsome and the healers will have no trouble. If you worry combine it with barkskin

But this chap is correct regarding lacerate. So if you are not Bleeding the target wtf take rend and tear. Later at lvl 80 for Raids take it ofc but not for 5 mans and grinding to 80

EDIT: As for Infected Wounds OVER KotJ i dont think it will be of any use against Bosses at they will be Immune of have this sort of effect done by Rogues?

Infected Wounds > KotJ for bear. Bosses are immune to the snare, but NOT to the attack speed reduction. Warriors has done this with Thunder Clap for ages. "A rogue could do it" sure, if you have a rogue in the party. Do you really want to rely on him using that poison and keeping it up? You're SOL whenever the rogue doesnt join.

Unless you will oneshot everything in Naxx the day you hit 80, taking talents that requires you to lose tanking mitigation is just a setback. Lets just say you do 500 DPS. Over a 1 minute fight (enrage CD), you will do 30000 damage. If your DPS is increased by 15% for 10 seconds, your damage goes up to 30750. Woopdidoo, spending 3 talents increases your bear damage by a whooping 2,5%, while cripling your ability as a tank. How can you even compare that with a 20% attack speed reduction on a tank?!

Bring Naturalist to 5 points. You won't find a much better talent for raising your dmg (=threat), as it affects all your physical dmg and not only special skills.

No. It will raise your dmg (=threat) a lot and also reduce incoming dmg when the boss parries less. Actually it's even better for bears than for cats, as cats are supposed to attack from behind and so they won't benefit from lower parry chance, while bears benefit fully from lower parry and dodge chance of the boss.
It may not be needed later when you have lots of expertise on your equipment, but our current feral equipment at lvl 70 has very little of it.

Compared to other talents that i can get for those two talent points, im afraid id rather pass up on this and get those instead.

I see lots of talent trees that are missing key talents. First there is no point in making a hybrid spec since dual specs is on the horizon. Here is my lvl 80 tanking spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000
3 points left over to get whatever you want.

As i was trying to argue above, take out PP aswell, and you can get Master Shapeshifter. 4% more damage (and add a high threat modifier to that) over 2,5% chance to be parried, any time any day.

[Mikki]

Cool. I am not a Tank (well not yet) so you reply is very infomative.

But surly you would take 5 in Naturaltist over 5 in rend? 20% to 1 attack that need a prereq of a bleed to 10% on all. Perhaps leave rend and tear for lvl 70 but pick it up as you head towards 80.

But you point on Infected Wounds>KotJ is correct and i will adjust to this.

[Deleted]

I only have 1/5 rend and tear, and 5/5 naturalist. I will end up with this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

[Koumaru]

wrong, we need 101.8 that is our number to avoid every melee attack, warriors and pallys are .6 higher because they also have parry.

We would only need 101.2% because we dont' Block, either. The 102.4% "avoidance" figure for warriors and paladins includes blocks.

This is all fairly irrelevant now, though. Crushing blows are gone (unless you're tanking +4s or higher), and the diminishing returns mechanic for avoidance assures that a bear will never come close to 101.2% avoidance.