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  1. #21

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    The way I've been told is, hit cap like everyone says, then gear for crit, gem for haste. Been working fine for me so far, even if im not up in t6 gear.

  2. #22

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Quote Originally Posted by junirel
    I prefer high crit cuz I just like seeing big numbers....
    so at what's better crit vs haste... and is there a point where it switches off?
    i would take crit over haste because Nature's Grace would bring your wrath down to 1 sec, and you cant get the GCD lower then 1 sec.

    if your using starfire then take haste

  3. #23

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    I'm a little confused myself as what stats to look for on my druid now.

    People are saying the highest dps rotation is (with eclipse): MF>SF until eclipse procs>Wrath until eclipse fades>repeat.

    But with added haste, wouldn't it mean you were spamming wrath which would have a lesser casting time than the GCD (if critting frequently), leading to dps loss?


  4. #24

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    The little amount of Wrath you'd throw in during Eclipse (and be aware that you WILL at least lag one SF into it's uptime, not to mention movement etc.) is by far no reason to destroy haste as the superior stat for DPS. And since Wrath isn't really worth casting anytime else, and is still quite some manahungry bastard, you should not design your gear around that spell so much. This tiny difference would also even be notable enough to have at least a tiny effect, if you spam-cast your spells like every few milliseconds which is - at least for several bossfights long - only practicable by owning a G15'ish keyboard and using a spam key (like me and I still won't take crit over haste ever - for good reason).

    @bootzilla: This is not the worst way to get a set of gear that gives a healthy mixture, however I wouldn't exchange the same slot with the same i-lvl item that trades crit for anything out of hit, haste or spower. The chance that your old piece is better is quite big

  5. #25

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resto
    i would take crit over haste because Nature's Grace would bring your wrath down to 1 sec, and you cant get the GCD lower then 1 sec.

    if your using starfire then take haste
    Just because the cast time is down to 1 second, doesn't mean the global cooldown is. The only benefit of Nature's Grace for Wrath is that the cast reaches the target faster, it does NOT allow you to cast more.

    Also, for PvE Wrath is only worth it during Eclipse - otherwise Starfire is better DPS and better efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  6. #26

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilshire153
    considering how we were called oomkins for so long, crit is more mana efficient. Crit gives reduction on our next spell cast, when we crit we can gain mana back. Our talents also make our crits hit for so much more than our flat damage. Crit has always been better than haste for moonkin unless you liked spending money on hundreds mana potions for each boss fight pre 3.0 but then again, most of you wouldn't know considering the majority of moonkins are people wearing resto gear since 3.0 was released.
    /Agreed, thats just lame

  7. #27

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Quote Originally Posted by Degrador
    Just because the cast time is down to 1 second, doesn't mean the global cooldown is. The only benefit of Nature's Grace for Wrath is that the cast reaches the target faster, it does NOT allow you to cast more.
    Hm? Living in the past?
    When Nature's grace procc it now also reduces the gcd of wrath to 1sec, meaning that you can infact cast more spells over a period of time.

  8. #28

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Quote Originally Posted by Semi
    Hm? Living in the past?
    When Nature's grace procc it now also reduces the gcd of wrath to 1sec, meaning that you can infact cast more spells over a period of time.
    Ah ok, missed that in the patch notes. My bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  9. #29
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    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Pretty sure it didn't point out in the patch notes that it works that way, but testing it will show that it does

  10. #30

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axal
    I'm a little confused myself as what stats to look for on my druid now.

    People are saying the highest dps rotation is (with eclipse): MF>SF until eclipse procs>Wrath until eclipse fades>repeat.

    But with added haste, wouldn't it mean you were spamming wrath which would have a lesser casting time than the GCD (if critting frequently), leading to dps loss?
    The bolded part is the most important part. You shouldn't crit too frequently. With Eclipse, the damage of your Wrath increases. Maintain a decent, but not incredible crit, and you won't have to worry about too many NG procs.

  11. #31

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    You should go for about 25-30% crit, then stack haste

  12. #32

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    That's pretty much what you obtain by raidbuffs and talents and crit by int and what'll come along on generally good items anyway, in this regard the above statement is valid. If looking for pure DPS, skip crit in favor of hit (until capped), spower and haste. Don't ever think about wasting gem slots for it, not even partially.

  13. #33

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Crit I mean whats standing when you press "C" ingame. I know you get like 9% extra with talent and t6.

  14. #34

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flanky
    You should go for about 25-30% crit, then stack haste
    No.

    Stacking crit to a certain point infers that crit is better than haste until you have that certain amount of crit, which is wrong. If you have enough mana then haste is better regardless of your crit%, although spell power is better than both up until a certain amount of spell power.

  15. #35

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    I did boomkin to 80 in the beta, and the way quest rewards are itemized, you sacrifice a lot of other things to get crit. I was running around with 7k health and 7.5k mana because I was taking all of the crit rewards.

    This time around I'm going to take all the haste rewards and see how that plays out.

  16. #36

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Until some point good old spower will serve you best, and if you can get a bit haste on top of it, nice. Just do not focus on haste or crit only (esp. not crit) because either crit items have too much valuepoints eaten by it, and (non-dungeon-) haste items tend to have little to no other stats beside haste, that I would rate even higher when leveling as opposed to raiding later on.
    From how the stuff is designed I really would recommend focusing on spower, and welcoming haste and then crit if it comes by anyway. For later raiding, the break even point of when haste outscales spower has to be determined then. It makes little sense to do it now, where tweaks are still quite probable and while leveling squeezing out every last percent of DPS is not quite worth it.

    If you have been a Moonkin for quite some time before and run around with T6 equivalent items, you are probably good to go up until lvl78 or longer. So if you have a chance to grab some of it in random raids, that is time quite well spent I think.

  17. #37

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Can someone help me with the math, i have a few questions about this?

    How much haste does it take to reduce the cast time of starfire by .5 seconds?

    How much haste do you need to have 6% (we already have this with talents).

    If you had to choose between 3% haste or 3% crit, which would you take? (Celestial Focus vs Improved Insect Swarm)

    How many people are spec'd into the eclipse talent? If so, would people using eclipse benefit more from having higher haste or crit? I understand that it procs off of crit, but in theory, if you spec'd into a lot of haste, you would get off more wrath casts in less time, giving more chances for wrath to crit and proc eclipse, thus increasing starfire'c crit chance by 30%, which would negate any spell crit you lost by gearing for haste?


  18. #38

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Quote Originally Posted by buch3r
    How much haste does it take to reduce the cast time of starfire by .5 seconds?
    You need two steps to get this number.
    1) According to wowwiki, you need 32.79 hasterating for 1% haste.
    2) This is the quirky part: How long is the cast before applying haste? 3.5s untalented; 3s talented; 2.5s talented with NG proc.
    In case one: .5s is 14.3% => 469 hasterating
    In case two: .5s is 16.7% => 548 hasterating
    In case three: .5s is 20.0% => 656 hasterating

    Any additional mechanic that changes your castingtime before haste is applied will change this too. Thus it makes little sense to ask "What haste is equal to .5s?" as there is, for moonkins at least, no real generic case. (Though cases 2 and 3 would be quite common.)

    How much haste do you need to have 6% (we already have this with talents).
    32.79*6 ~= 197

    If you had to choose between 3% haste or 3% crit, which would you take? (Celestial Focus vs Improved Insect Swarm)
    That's actually a tough one. On gear the choice would be easy since crit costs a lot more itembudget than haste. I'd fall for haste I have to say. Reasons: Even if MF should be running as gapless as possible, CF still does not require any precaution to be active. It is far more reliable. When I hate one thing most, it is bad luck on crits. If I am very lucky on the other hand, aggro could slow me down. And since mana is not that much of an issue in raids, the 3% better chance on manareturn is not enough to pull me over.
    I am also a big fan of the stun. It saved my a$$ numerous times on some trashpulls, but that really isn't a valid argument for or againts anything I guess.

    The only setup that would make IIS quite interesting is: IS-Glyph + Eclipse. Have IS and MF up all time (IS unglyphed is too much of a dps loss), SF until Eclipse and benefit from the wrath-part of the talent with Eclipse up as well. I am however certain that weaving in gapless IS (and so that you'd not have to recast it inside Eclipse...) will make any kind of a rotation impossible, and will probably lead to no or quite small benefits due to rota-screwups (esp. in movement fights). Eclipse itself draws too much attention away from the actual fight already, I don't want to take care of two DoTs, of which one would alter it's runtime sometimes due to using a very beneficial SF glyph.

    Actually, bot have their benefits and downsides. I almost tend to saying: Take that, from which you think it accomodates your playstyle and vision of your Moonkin best


    How many people are spec'd into the eclipse talent? If so, would people using eclipse benefit more from having higher haste or crit? I understand that it procs off of crit, but in theory, if you spec'd into a lot of haste, you would get off more wrath casts in less time, giving more chances for wrath to crit and proc eclipse, thus increasing starfire'c crit chance by 30%, which would negate any spell crit you lost by gearing for haste?
    Proccing Eclipse from Wrath is, and this is contrary to what one has to think when reading it, actually less of a boost than proccing it from SF and casting Wrath only if it's respective Eclipse buff is up.
    The rotation that has provided best DPS numbers in theory so far is: MF, 3xSF, Wrath if Eclipse procced else SF. When MF runs out, repeat. {*}
    The 3xSF is there to make use of the three times you can lengthen your MF by the glyph, and it would be best if Eclipse procced on one of these (pref. the last). So, statistically, 33% of total crit (including all talents and raidbuffs and everything) would do very well.
    33% is easily achieved in a raid, and crit on gear, enchants and gems performs much worse than hit/SP/haste. So I'd simply take crit that is there on otherwise good gear anyways, and focus on capping hit at first, then getting SP up to ~2k, and from this point on haste should give the best scaling. (SP and haste are quite close to each other, so haste @1.5k SP for example is anything but wasted.)


    {*} There is also an easier alternative: MF, 3xSF, Wrath whatever procced when. Restart on MF running out. This will result in about the same DPS. Reasons: Wrath does higher DPS on paper, but NG procced Wraths will negate any haste due to GCD-cap, and Wrath is more prone to lag. Secondly, Eclipse will mostly not be used to full extent, and it is somewhat of a gamble whether you're curretly casting the spell that is buffed at any point in time. The only thing that is certain: It'll burn your mana way faster than the above rotation.


    Sorry for this little lengthy monster. I was in a mood

  19. #39

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medium9
    You need two steps to get this number.
    1) According to wowwiki, you need 32.79 hasterating for 1% haste.
    2) This is the quirky part: How long is the cast before applying haste? 3.5s untalented; 3s talented; 2.5s talented with NG proc.
    In case one: .5s is 14.3% => 469 hasterating
    In case two: .5s is 16.7% => 548 hasterating
    In case three: .5s is 20.0% => 656 hasterating
    That's close but not quite right. Haste is calculated as a multiplier of 1/(1+Haste%) (this prevents exponential returns). So:
    In case one: 3 = 3.5*1/(1+x). 1+x = 3.5/3. x = 0.1666 (16.7%). Requiring 547 haste rating.
    In case two: 2.5 = 3*1/(1+x). 1+x = 3/2.5. x = 0.2000 (20.0%). Requiring 656 haste rating.
    In case three: 2 = 2.5*1/(1+x). 1+x = 2.5/2. x = 0.2500 (25.0%). Requiring 820 haste rating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronalis
    in soviet russia, mods troll you!

  20. #40

    Re: What's better for moonkin? Crit or Haste?

    Damn, I did it right in my excel stuff and in my simulator. No idea how I came up with that way in my posting - being 22h awake might had s.th. to do with it . Thanks for the correction.

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