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  1. #1

    The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Ive been reading posts from up and coming raiders and abot the best spells to use during encounters.

    CoH since 3.0 is so overpowered in raids its rare to see any other class to top heal meters on raids. Blizzard adding a 6 second cooldown to CoH is great. means that those nubs who think they sick healers will actually realize spam CoH is crap.

    I try to have a cast order like: CoH>Renew>Renew>GHeal>Renew>CoH while healing. spam CoH isnt mana effecient and u will fin yurself drained in only 2 minutes if u do try it or less. My priest has about 300 mp5 800 spirit with a imp spirit priest and 1300 sp. i welcome the cooldown change to CoH cause it will give a priest more chances to conserve mana for longer fights as well as allow them to use their other spells as well like they should be doing already.

    An as for GHeal. i here newly lvl 70 priests crying about how they cant cast GHeal cause it takes to long and isnt as great as Flash Heal. with 1 gheal u can heal for just as much as 2 flash heals plus with the new set up for crit for priests ive gotten 10k crits on gheal. then u get free flash heals every time u crit as well if speced the right way in the holy tree. and in the long run as long as ur not just spaming gheal every time u cast u should easliy be able to be a single target healer and last longer thru yur mana regen.

    Ive yet to meet any other priest with better gear then me able to outheal me as well. given ive been healing since the original world of warcraft first dropped into my lap so ive had time to practice and to understand much about priest healing. Dont get my wrong i sure as hell dotn know everything there is to know about the priest healing class but i know alot.

    And to check up on my priest check out Eurekasev>Smolderthorn on the armory. ive switched alot of my gear from healing gear pre 3.0 to the dps gear ive gathered over time to combine them into a sick healer getup. ive gatherered so much extra gear as well that i can switch some out for haste or more crit or more mp5 easily and still stay on top of meters.

    BTW: OVERHEALING IS A GOOD THING IN BC, people get hit for so much more damage now that overhealing is required trust me i know though ive never been in top 3 on overheal charts. hell holy tree makes it easy for u on overhealing a target by given u a percent back of the mana used to cast greater of flash heal. so gl all u new and old priests leav me messages plaz they are much looked after

  2. #2

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Thanks for at least trying to post in English! :-*

    To be honest, 10k crits on healing is not that exciting, and with the Guardian Spirit we have gotten in the latest patch, I have seen myself critting with gHeal for 11.979 while the average heal goes for only 7500+ or so.

    I am curious to see how the new gear, both crafted and drops from normal/heroic/raids instances will work out for Priests, since we should see a mixture of +MP5/+SPI/+Haste gear, now all has been converted to SpellPower.

    Other than this, I don't really see a question or statement in your post to reply on, sorry
    Quote Originally Posted by Furkel View Post
    There's always, ALWAYS a "huge uproar" about anything Blizz does, usually from people who either don't entirely understand the thing they're complaining about, or refuse to acknowledge that most players are perfectly okay with the current state of affairs. Whenever people complain that they don't listen to feedback it mostly means "they don't listen to ME ME ME".
    My new signature. Thanks.

  3. #3
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    At least he's a priest who understands that GH is better than Flash Heal. I've been noticing the same thing he has. Priests who think faster is better and not realizing there are far more important equasions to factor in, such as mana efficiency. For any newer priest who reads this post, here is a timetable to help you better understand the effectiveness of Greater Heal.

    Greater Heal, talented (at 70) - 2.5 second cast time, 713 mana
    Flash Heal, glyphed (cannot be talented, also at 70) - 1.5 second cast time, 424 mana

    Let's say you are MT healing a boss. You have 10 seconds where you are spam healing him. Now, let's do a chart of sorts to show the differences between these two spells over that period of time.

    Greater Heal - Over 10 seconds, you will cast this 4 times. It will cost you 2,852 mana, and your healing will be (estimated) around 24,000.
    Flash Heal - You will cast this 6 times and be in the last .5 seconds of your 7th. It will cost you 2,544 mana and your healing will be (estimated) around 21,000.

    If you take this exact same timetable and spread it out over a full raid boss encounter, you are doing more healing using Greather Heal than using Flash Heal. Notice how Greater Heal in 10 seconds of time cost only 308 more mana, yet has done 3k more healing. That's called efficiency. The HPS ratio on Greater Heal is far better, and it's mana spent to healing done ratio far exceeds Flash Heal.

    In the end, Flash Heal as Holy sucks. It should never be your primary heal, and if you are using it as your primary heal then you need to look at this page and realize your mistakes. Math is not an opinion. It's a fact.

    Kudos to the OP for trying to educate the priest community. Maybe now the bad healer population will decrease by some percentage points.

  4. #4

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Kudos to the OP for trying to educate the priest community. Maybe now the bad healer population will decrease by some percentage points.
    I think GH isn't as "great" as it used to be. First of all, the glyph of FH makes it almost as efficient as GH. Also with changes to downranking, you are completely neglecting overheal. Yes, Greater Heal is ALWAYS more efficient than Flash Heal assuming your tank always needs the maximum amount of healing possible out of Greater Heal.

    In a 5 man, you can control when a tank gets healed so you can selectively use GH to play with the 5 second rule and get even more mana back. But what happens when someone takes 3k damage? You can throw a renew on them. Ok, so now they take another 3k damage. You can use GH thereby making the renew on the target overheal or you can use a flash heal for less mana and allow the renew on the target to be efficient. Greater Heal just isn't an effective "touch up" heal because in the situation you need that kind of healing on a non-tank, they are in a danger zone of dying and you probably can't waste the time required to cast it.

    In raids (specifically 25 man raids), paladins will probably be the MT healers. You will probably keep up renew on the MT and a priest or two might even be assigned to MT heal. This will be where GH shines. It is more efficient and the dps on the tank can warrant the need for GH's hps. Now if you are raid healing... you're back to the situation above for 5 mans when "touch up" healing. Most people are spamming CoH cause it's a nice touch up heal to 5 people that's instant cast. Assuming CoH gets nerfed, what are your other options for touch up healing?

    Greater Heal? No, too big for touch ups, too slow for emergency damage on random people considering there are more raid healers than tank healers. It will result in either a death for being too slow or extreme overhealing when other people throw out their CoH/WG/CH/Nourish/LHW/FH and heal them before you. This leaves you with flash heal/renew/PW:S or some combo thereof during CoH cooldown.

    In short: Assuming 0 overheal, yes GH > FH in terms of efficiency. However, in reality when there are other healers, GH will result in a larger % overheal and most likely lower efficiency than FH when assigned to raid healing. GH will be superior when main tank healing assuming the boss/trash is putting out sufficient dps to warrant the use of GH. Maybe I'm just lucky to have very fast healers in my guild, but if I'm at all slow on a heal... no matter the size I use, it will be overheal because they are fastidiious. Personally I'd rather do 100% overheal with a 400'ish mana heal than 100% overheal with a 700-800 mana heal. Maybe I'll do the math on the % overhealing of each spell required before one is most efficient than the other. (runs off to excel)

  5. #5

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    I would say 90% of my GH casts are a waste of time. They simply don't get there fast enough.

    And given that if I flask/mana fish/mana oil + the massive amount of regen I have I can use CoH a lot, throw in some renew's/PoM's and yes a few flash heals. Most fights I no longer tank heal. that job is just not suited to a Holy priest. we have a Disc priest, a Druid and a Pally healer who are just plain more effective at it.

    So what happens when they add a countdown to CoH? Well I for one will go Disc. IMO the ONLY thing a holy priest is good for atm is Raid healing. And they will be way way less effective at that with a cooldown on CoH.

    I look at all the splash damage thrown around - and combined with enrage timers you need your melee in there DPSing through the AOE. By design you need massive amounts of raid heals. And so they give us the tools, we use them and then they say they don't like the mechanic. WTF??

    This is silly - very very silly. Design stuff that needs a tool - give people the tool they like and use - then say oh no you are using it too much! And so where is the priest class left? well for 5 & 10 mans that I will be doing for the next few weeks/months it doesn't look like Holy will be a tree that I get anything out of. I tried GS and I would say if you need it more often than not you are going to wipe anyway. CoH will be too small, too big a countdown, too often my lightwell is ignored or just not needed, Imp Dieing so often I am either out of range or if its a 5/10 man healer down = wipe.

    Disc is based a lot on your shield - and as a consequence works best with a prot pally who isn't rage dependant. Prot pally/Disc priest G2G. And then if that doesn't work I'm shadow...

  6. #6

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurekasev
    I try to have a cast order like: CoH>Renew>Renew>GHeal>Renew>CoH while healing.
    TLDR past that as I had to read it a few times to be sure I was boggled by it. Could you clarify this? Aside from the fact that holy priests should avoid having a fixed cast order per se, this makes no sense. I'm going to assume that you're speaking towards raid healing, as overwriting renews, well... But even so, with the upcoming CD to CoH it will best be kept as an on-reserve spell. For raid healing, renew is fantastic for managing intermittent damage, and mixing in the CoH when several targets need it, but provided I'm correct in that this is regarding raid healing I don't see where GH fits as a common tool. GH is optimal for holy priests for tank healing or when a raid member needs a big heal (and time can be afforded to deliver it). Flash heal is less efficient (though only marginally so with the glyph) if the full healing done by GH is required, but in the more common scenario where less damage has been inflicted it gets the job done faster letting you address the next demand. GH also takes longer to cast which means, if you're raid healing, others are having to wait longer to be addressed and your heal is likely to deliver a tremendous amount of overheal. Lastly, where is PoM? I have yet to see a scenario where keeping PoM on CD isn't optimal.
    Bigslick (13/14H)
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  7. #7

    The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Ugh trying to find the % overheal required for both FH and GH to where each is most efficient is... proving to be a pain. lol It's mostly a pain because as GH enters 1 health overheal, it's efficiency increases greatly but the same is true of Flash Heal.

    I did some rough math with my terribly geared priest. Assuming GH heals for ~4290 (712 mana, 534 if overheal) and FH for ~2068 (424 mana, 318 if overheal), GH is less efficient when the effective heal is ~2600. Anywhere below this effective healing, FH is MORE efficient than GH.

    So if your overheal is 4290-2600 (the point of equal efficiency in terms of hpm) or 1690 overheal (1690/4290 = ~40% overheal) FH is "better." Now, I'm sure my math is NOWHERE near perfect, but the concept behind it is sound. There is a point of equal efficiency and anytime the health deficit is below that point FH is more effective. In a raid setting you are much more likely to have another healer push you into this zone where FH is more effective simply because of the longer cast time of GH.

  8. #8

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Wow... I really hope for the sake of priests community they do NOT listen to your uneducated rambling. There's way too may flaws in your points and your math to even begin to dispute it all...

    Please learn to read Elitistjerks forums about priests, people much better at theorycraft and math can explain why you're wrong.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord Annarion's Avatar
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    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Priests who think flash heal is better than gheal are bad. That doesn't need to be said. Anyone who just spams CoH over and over again is bad. Having it on a 6 second cooldown means you can't aoe heal through constant damage. I used to use CoH all day on Illidan's air phase, because 2-3 CoHs had the whole raid topped off everytime he did his little fireball spam. Now I can't do that. Great work. The only time I ever topped healing meters with CoH was on Reliquary of Souls, because I'd just sit there and spam it on the dps groups and laugh all the way to the e-peen bank.

    Greater Heal is good, but the likelihood of it landing for the full amount is totally RNG. We have other tools to use, and they're nerfing one of our tools. There is no now way to reliably counter multiple small aoe hits, like the souls on Hex Lord in ZA.

    Blizzard is full of crazy people, I swear. CoH wasn't too good. It was just right.

    I love how they defined roles for each different healer, then shit on them and gave the priest role away. No more aoe heals, hooray! Give them to a druid!


    Good thing I'm rolling DK.

  10. #10

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Maths is for DPS classes. healing is reactionary - DPS is proactive.

    Healers need timing, smarts, positioning and awareness. You cannot compare flash heal and wait for 10 secs before casting another spell to anything - because sometimes that is what is needed. If you are worrying about rotations then the guy hitting on the tank will probably kill him.

    PvE is a team sport. You are not competeing. When you realise that then it becomes easier.


  11. #11

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Please learn to read Elitistjerks forums about priests, people much better at theorycraft and math can explain why you're wrong.
    I have and do. But it doesn't take into account group mechanics. As I said GH is definitely better for MT healing. Priests don't seem to do that much anymore. Do you honestly raid heal/touch up using GH? lol I can promise you'll do on average OVER 40% overhealing which means you'd be better off touching up with flash heal.

  12. #12

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    For sure I'm a noob compared to all those pro priests that always top the healing list, but generally my main purpose it is not to top the list of "healing done" but to be at the end of the list of "overhealing". Even if now we have Serendipity this doesn't mean that we can do all the overhealing that we want. Overheal a people means heal a person that doesn't need to be healed, so if someone is at the top of the healing done but this person is also at the top (or near the top) of the overhealing list this means that he/she has passed almost all the night healing people that didn't need it. And this is a fact.

    So imo GH atm is not very viable raid heal for 2 reasons:

    - 1 if u are assigned to MT u are not the only healer on him (in a 25 men raid generally MT healers are 3-4), so if u spent 2.5 sec casting a GH while others healers are also healing the MT your GH will be almost totally overhealing. If the tank is very low on health 2.5 sec of cast can produce the dead of MT.

    -2 if u are assigned to the raid (if the boss makes a huge aoe damage for example Najentus after the shield break) u can't use GH beacause u need too much time to heal everyone; otherwise (if the boss makes not such a huge aoe damage but an overtime damage like bloodboil in Gurtog fight) u will never use a GH to heal raid members.

    So even with all my mistakes I'll continue to use FH as main spell in raid, with Renew and Prayer of Mending and I'll use GH only in some particular situations but not for sure as main heal in a raid.

    In 5 men groups everything changes since there is only one healer in the group so GH can be more viable in that case.

    Sorry for my bad english :P

  13. #13

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    - 1 if u are assigned to MT u are not the only healer on him (in a 25 men raid generally MT healers are 3-4), so if u spent 2.5 sec casting a GH while others healers are also healing the MT your GH will be almost totally overhealing. If the tank is very low on health 2.5 sec of cast can produce the dead of MT.

    -2 if u are assigned to the raid (if the boss makes a huge aoe damage for example Najentus after the shield break) u can't use GH beacause u need too much time to heal everyone; otherwise (if the boss makes not such a huge aoe damage but an overtime damage like bloodboil in Gurtog fight) u will never use a GH to heal raid members.

    So even with all my mistakes I'll continue to use FH as main spell in raid, with Renew and Prayer of Mending and I'll use GH only in some particular situations but not for sure as main heal in a raid.
    I agree with you mostly however, for MT healing cancel/casting is the best way to do that using GH. Because you have 2-4 people healing the MT depending on the encounter, using GH and cancel/casting is most efficient and lets you out of the 5SR. Also some encounters like tidewalker (back when you did it in T4/T5 gear), FLK shaman, and Brutallus could kill your tank in under 2 seconds... you have to use GH and you have to stagger your heal with other healers.

    I think people misunderstand my stance on GH. It's good for what it is, but when it comes to raid healing... it's a terrible heal. In the time it takes to cast it, someone else will get off a CoH/WG/FH/FoL/Nourish/glyphed-HT/LHW/Riptide/Holy Shock and end up making your GH an extreme overheal to the point of inefficiency both in time and mana. When it comes to 5 mans, yeah FH is bad usually. When it comes to 25 mans, if someone non-tank needs a direct heal and if CoH is unavailable (assuming it ends up with a cooldown), FH would be the heal to use. If you wanna raid/spot heal with GH, go try it and lemme know how it works out for you.

  14. #14

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Quote Originally Posted by annarion
    There is no now way to reliably counter multiple small aoe hits, like the souls on Hex Lord in ZA.
    Prayer of Mending does wonders on sex lord. Same goes for any other encounter with such mechanics.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Quote Originally Posted by syanid
    Prayer of Mending does wonders on sex lord. Same goes for any other encounter with such mechanics.
    "Sex Lord"? You know, I'm not even going to ask...

  16. #16

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    That little order to my spells i gave in my first post was to explain that when im assigned to MT heal im teamed up with a Pali. a renew and a Gheal is what i use on the mt the coh and a second renew is what i put on other raid members and any OT in range. In my guild we usually run with 1 or 2 less healers then most raid groups do so healers tend to pull double duty. and we dotn run less healers cause we want more dps cause we have crappy dps, no its because we wnat to get our targets down fast so we can move on. full clears of hyjal are great when u can do it in 3 hours or less. and personally ive noticed in BT and Hyjal some bosses hit really hard so casting gheal and over healing for half of it is still pretty damn good when u have serendipity(prob spelled worng). And i thought i mentioned that even with me from what u say wasting mana and overheals im still maybe out of 5 healers number 5 on overheal.

    And spam CoH, i mean come on i even know its a waste of mana sometimes especially for me cause i have to raid heal and MT heal at same time. It works for me and my buddies in legendary Incompetence even say im a damn good healer and a smart healer. And i stack enough hast to make my gheal spells cast in 1.98 seconds which makes them much more effiecient during raids allowing me to do both raid and MT healing like i said earlier.

  17. #17

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown
    At least he's a priest who understands that GH is better than Flash Heal. I've been noticing the same thing he has. Priests who think faster is better and not realizing there are far more important equasions to factor in, such as mana efficiency. For any newer priest who reads this post, here is a timetable to help you better understand the effectiveness of Greater Heal.

    Greater Heal, talented (at 70) - 2.5 second cast time, 713 mana
    Flash Heal, glyphed (cannot be talented, also at 70) - 1.5 second cast time, 424 mana

    Let's say you are MT healing a boss. You have 10 seconds where you are spam healing him. Now, let's do a chart of sorts to show the differences between these two spells over that period of time.

    Greater Heal - Over 10 seconds, you will cast this 4 times. It will cost you 2,852 mana, and your healing will be (estimated) around 24,000.
    Flash Heal - You will cast this 6 times and be in the last .5 seconds of your 7th. It will cost you 2,544 mana and your healing will be (estimated) around 21,000.

    If you take this exact same timetable and spread it out over a full raid boss encounter, you are doing more healing using Greather Heal than using Flash Heal. Notice how Greater Heal in 10 seconds of time cost only 308 more mana, yet has done 3k more healing. That's called efficiency. The HPS ratio on Greater Heal is far better, and it's mana spent to healing done ratio far exceeds Flash Heal.

    In the end, Flash Heal as Holy sucks. It should never be your primary heal, and if you are using it as your primary heal then you need to look at this page and realize your mistakes. Math is not an opinion. It's a fact.

    Kudos to the OP for trying to educate the priest community. Maybe now the bad healer population will decrease by some percentage points.
    I'm very disappointed with the math performed in this post. Not trying to offend you, however, instead of taking a 10 second period to compare efficiency, a one minute period where both FH and GH have full casts would be much more meaningful.

    Here is the 1 minute analysis. The numbers surprised me.
    GH: 24 casts
    FH: 40 casts

    Based on the numbers the quoted poster put in place, you can extrapolate the healing done and mana usage.

    GH: 144000 healing / 17112 mana used -> 8.415 healing/mana
    FH: 140000 healing / 16960 mana used -> 8.254 healing/mana

    Ratio between the two: 8.415 / 8.254 = 1.0195

    GH is only 1.95% more mana efficient than FH. Of course this assumes no crits or or procs or modifiers.

    That being said, I cannot vouche for the usefulness of GH over FH.

  18. #18

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    Quote Originally Posted by happyPanda
    GH is only 1.95% more mana efficient than FH. Of course this assumes no crits or or procs or modifiers.
    More casting of Flash means more crits, which in turn can trigger Improved Holy Concentration, Surge of Light, or if you're Discipline, more Divine Aegis. These are huge.

    Basic comparing of mana-->heal charts don't take that into consideration.
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  19. #19

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    ^What he said.
    I also got my blue dragon trinket yesterday, which in every test = flash heal>gheal, for mana enduance and total healing done.
    I even treated it like a raid w/ one mana pot and shadow fiend(on a target dummy).


  20. #20

    Re: The Power of gheal and changes to CoH.

    I understand OP knows his class, however, I'm not really sure I agree with him. Having a healing rotation is complete BS really. Healing is about keeping people up and whatever spell is needed to do that I do. It's about understanding people in raids, who seems to pull agro, understanding the main tanks, etc...

    I'll use any trick I can to keep people up.

    That said though, I'm not sure I like the change to CoH, for similar reasons. And also realistically, just because CoH is on CD, then a lot of priests will just spam HN, for essentially the same effect.

    That also said, keeping mending up, renews on people you know are going to take damage, FH's with Surge of Light.

    The other challenge I see though, is that LK is now tuned with CoH and WG in mind for encounters, and changing something as fundamental as a CD would immensely change those. Also add that since the change is not going to effect chain heal, then it's going to be another reason to stack resto shaman to the detriment of priests and druids.

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