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  1. #21

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    lol@linking me to elitist jerks.


  2. #22

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    How about you go read the thread like I did?

    Or I could go back, spend my time to read what I already read in order to find the exact post(s) to prove my point.

    But I won't.

  3. #23

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Offhand
    Care to link us the thread where hit all of a sudden becomes less important? I know it used to be true for enhancement shamans but now hitting the soft cap is pretty much a requirement for all melee classes.

    Thank you for the link to the front page, it was already bookmarked.
    Its not that hit is less important, its that strength is more important now that we have an extra 5% from our talent in prot and it also give us spell power which most of our dps abilities scale with also. 10 str is 11 with kings and 12.65 with divine strength which gives 25.3 AP. That 25.3 AP is 27.83 ap with unleashed rage. 27.83 ap is 8.349 spell power. Hit on the other hand does scale.

    27.83 ap and 8.349 spell power vs 10 hit rating
    the first choice should be obvious.

  4. #24

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatheed
    How about you go read the thread like I did?

    Or I could go back, spend my time to read what I already read in order to find the exact post(s) to prove my point.

    But I won't.
    So you're asking me to read every EJ thread concerning paladins by linking me to the front page of a very large and complex website which I already regularly participate in?

  5. #25

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Offhand
    So you're asking me to read every EJ thread concerning paladins by linking me to the front page of a very large and complex website which I already regularly participate in?
    Go download any ret dps spreadsheet thats been updated since 3.0 came out to the up to date one and find me one that says 10 hit is better than 10 strength.

  6. #26

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    While strength is significantly more important for dps due to its tremendous scaling for a ret pally, hit can't be completely ignored. Completely apart from dps, hit and expertise are going to contribute to a ret paladins longevity as well as your raids longevity. Each time a judgement misses or is dodged, you and your raid miss out on JotW. As of the last spreadsheet I've seen through EJ, this hadn't been taken into account. I still imagine you would gem as suggested: all reds: strength, all yellows: str + hit, all blues: sta +hit unless the bonus isn't useful for pve dps in which case I'd imagine unless your hit is truly struggling, you'd choose strength.

  7. #27

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telethon
    While strength is significantly more important for dps due to its tremendous scaling for a ret pally, hit can't be completely ignored. Completely apart from dps, hit and expertise are going to contribute to a ret paladins longevity as well as your raids longevity. Each time a judgement misses or is dodged, you and your raid miss out on JotW. As of the last spreadsheet I've seen through EJ, this hadn't been taken into account. I still imagine you would gem as suggested: all reds: strength, all yellows: str + hit, all blues: sta +hit unless the bonus isn't useful for pve dps in which case I'd imagine unless your hit is truly struggling, you'd choose strength.
    ^ this. Your dps wont be at all stellar if your mana bar is gone.

  8. #28

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by confessor
    ^ this. Your dps wont be at all stellar if your mana bar is gone.
    Allow me to edit what I had previously mentioned. It should have gone without saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Offhand
    Missed judges return significantly less mana then those that land ;D

    Cap hit, please, it's not hard for a 2 hand user.
    Fix'd

  9. #29

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telethon
    While strength is significantly more important for dps due to its tremendous scaling for a ret pally, hit can't be completely ignored. Completely apart from dps, hit and expertise are going to contribute to a ret paladins longevity as well as your raids longevity. Each time a judgement misses or is dodged, you and your raid miss out on JotW. As of the last spreadsheet I've seen through EJ, this hadn't been taken into account. I still imagine you would gem as suggested: all reds: strength, all yellows: str + hit, all blues: sta +hit unless the bonus isn't useful for pve dps in which case I'd imagine unless your hit is truly struggling, you'd choose strength.
    actually for blue i would gem str+stam and as you said hit cant be completely ignored, but I know its relative value to other stats such a str and consider it when choosing gear, ill take however much comes on my gear but there is no point in gemming for it when you could use Strength instead.

    The current stat priority is Str > Ap > hit > expertise > Agi (scales with kings outperforming crit) > crit > Haste > armor pen (only about 50% of our damage is physical)

  10. #30

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Offhand
    Allow me to edit what I had previously mentioned. It should have gone without saying.

    Fix'd
    more dps from more strength also results in more self damage from seal of the martyr and judgement of the martyr resulting in more mana gained when healed.

  11. #31

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by mightus
    more dps from more strength also results in more self damage from seal of the martyr and judgment of the martyr resulting in more mana gained when healed.
    The difference would be negligible in mana return. 10% more damage would only be 3% more mana return from damage taken. That's not including your self heal from light which negates attunement. In a mana intensive fight missing one judgment will pretty well hose you anyway.


  12. #32

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamson
    The difference would be negligible in mana return. 10% more damage would only be 3% more mana return from damage taken. That's not including your self heal from light which negates attunement. In a mana intensive fight missing one judgment will pretty well hose you anyway.

    you might want to consider that 10 str is over 80% better than 10 hit for dps according to the latest spreadsheets. Yes thats 1.8 times the ammount that hit gives you. Not even if you are oom will that little extra mana help you do more dps using hit over strength. Take w/e hit u can get on you gear and gem for Str (red) Str+hit (yellow) and Str+ stam(blue) in those sockets.

  13. #33

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    you seem to be assuming i'll be gemming for hit for some strange reason.

  14. #34

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    From what i've read everyone is forgetting that that 1% chance to miss can now be filled so that old 9% hit cap is now 10%

  15. #35

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamson
    you seem to be assuming i'll be gemming for hit for some strange reason.

    The reason im assuming this is because to me it seems that you think getting hit capped is more important than getting more strength and if given the choice between 10 str and 10 hit i feel the strength should be the obvious choice.

  16. #36

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilmaniac
    From what i've read everyone is forgetting that that 1% chance to miss can now be filled so that old 9% hit cap is now 10%
    Where did you see that?
    Check out my Ret Paladin YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/VarabenGaming

    #RETPRESENT

  17. #37

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by mightus
    The reason im assuming this is because to me it seems that you think getting hit capped is more important than getting more strength.
    There is a break even point for all comparisons like this. Show me how 3.0 pushed that break even point down below the theoretical cap and it will be worthwhile discussing any further.

  18. #38

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Quote Originally Posted by mightus

    The reason im assuming this is because to me it seems that you think getting hit capped is more important than getting more strength.
    I've never in my life gemmed for hit. Not warrior/paladin/shaman should.

    Melee hit cap is a joke. Just get the gear for it.

  19. #39

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    It was in a blue post a month or so into the beta

  20. #40

    Re: Hit and expertise cap for ret at level 80.

    Umm I was wondering about this (Prot Warrior, Ex-Fury) and decided to take a look at the Ret DPS spreadsheet done by Redcape on 10/26. It was the most recent one I could find without doing an absurd amount of searching. Perhaps he fixed it in a later version I didn't run across, but there is an error.

    I found a rather large mistake in his spreadsheet. When he was calculating the mitigation from armor he used the boss's level instead of the attacker's level (i.e. the player's level). The difference of 3 levels in the equation leads to less damage mitigated by armor. The difference is about 1-2% less damage actually done, iirc. Either way it leads to inflated values for Str and Crit.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor - for the Mitigation from armor equation.
    http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17193-p...62/#post953335
    ^ Red's post.

    Just something I found while looking at the inner workings.

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